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0:00:03: It is the middle ground between light and shadow between science and superstition and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is Time Enough podcast.
0:00:39: Hello, welcome to Time Enough Podcast where we get into episodes of the Twilight Zone and beyond. As always, this is Matt here with me today is Luke. Hi.
0:00:54: What up my fellow Gangsters. I'm the cleanest genius with the cleanest penis, genius, genius, genius, cleanest genius with the cleanest. It's, I think it's meant to be meanest genius, genius with the cleanest penis.
0:01:09: You can't just be clean.
0:01:13: OK. Yeah. So today is uh the passer by I, I, I invited you specifically for this one because you're not American.
0:01:21: So because uh it's, it's one of those, you know, great moments with Mr Lincoln 60 shows. Uh Star Trek also notoriously having one of those episodes, not the same person. I checked, I thought I was hoping because they got people for that, that like play presidents and stuff and like, you know, multiple movies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love that. I was really hoping to be. There is a Star Trek connection here. That's notable, but it's not that one. So I was a little disappointed by that.
0:01:50: Hm, doing some trivia since I'm already trying to like, edge into it anyway. Yeah, I mean, you, yeah, you, you, I could tell you're chomping at the bit to trivialize me.
0:02:00: Yeah.
0:02:01: Original air date was October six, The script is by Rod Serling Elliott Silver. Elliott Elliott Silverstein is back to direct. He will ultimately helm four episodes of the twilight zone James Gregory played the sergeant. He may be chill here, but he usually appeared in more aggressive roles such as the senator and the Manchurian candidate in general and beneath the planet of the Apes.
0:02:29: He showed up. Yeah, he showed up in plenty of other television roles as well as a regular role on Barney Miller in the seventies.
0:02:38: Lavinia Godwin was played by Joanne Linville. She was on the guiding light around this time and also appeared in a few episodes of fellow anthology show. One step beyond genre fans will surely recognize her as the romulan commander from Star Trek's the Enterprise incident. So that's why that's why I linked in the trick, which uh Trek and Apes. So this is good. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Blinking. You miss him. But uh Mash's corporal Clinger, Jamie Farr is one of the soldiers passing by in this episode. Is he one of the two with lines or is he just like an extra? He's just an extra. He wasn't like a famous dude yet. In 1961 you know, mash was like 10 years after this, right? So uh black is the color of my true love's hair with a Scottish by way of Appalachia Diddy.
0:03:28: But we also have a score from Fred Steiner. He's best known for composing the themes for Perry Mason and Rocky and bullwinkle. And he also did work on the music for the original Star Trek series and motion picture along with return of the Jedi, of course, on those movies, he was not the main composer. He was, you know, I don't, I don't know how, I don't know how big productions work. But, you know, I guess, I mean, there's a lot of different instruments so I see one guy can't take care of them all.
0:03:53: Didn't bother Beethoven.
0:03:56: I bet he had guys.
0:03:58: No, he was too much of a prick. You also also be Haven could probably spend more time on a project than like we were doing six different movies a year.
0:04:07: But, I mean, once you, once you, um, you know, once you learn orchestration, well, you can, you know, pretty much sit there and it's like, you know, how to plug in the basics, right? So, but yeah, even for me being a musician, yeah, the idea of composing something like that seems like, you know, headache can do so I can't do that. But, yeah, you can read, I'm sure by the end of John williams' career, he just like whistles into addictive phone and someone else does cloud outlast style. Yeah.
0:04:33: Is that, is that bad for me to say about a legend like John Williams?
0:04:38: But the guy in Cloud Atlas was a legend, right?
0:04:42: Yeah. Anyway, I'm not, I'm not saying that is John williams' saying it's possible not knowing any.
0:04:48: No, I I I I don't think I've alleged, I don't think I've ever heard dirt on John Williams.
0:04:54: Ok. You're alleged. Can you allege his prologue, please? This road is the afterwards of the Civil War. It began at Fort Sumter, South Carolina and ended at a place called Apo apo, a hippopotamus. It's littered with the residue of broken battles and shattered dreams in just a moment. You will enter a strange province that knows neither north nor south a place we call the Twilight zone. All right. Yeah. There, there's, there's where you betrayed. You're not being American because they, they make us know it's Apple matics in high school apps.
0:05:32: I think I've heard that and I, I've heard it as like upper medics.
0:05:38: I like hippopotamus though. That's fun. So, hip Hot max, the maximum hippopotamus was claimed more human lives. The hippopotamus of the American Civil War over, like, all of time. Mm.
0:05:55: Over all the time. I hippos are pretty aggressive, aren't they?
0:05:58: Yeah, they don't like it when they see you. Hm.
0:06:03: I mean, but, yeah. Yeah. That's a good question.
0:06:06: I don't have an answer to finding out right now, but I'm thinking all the time, I'm thinking like, prehistory, you know. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I get an accurate number if you just want, like, they killed at least 500 people a year. OK.
0:06:20: I think, uh, you know what? Uh, yeah, with the, I think they, uh, Hippopotamus is when 620,000 died in the us civil war.
0:06:32: So you're only, you're only taking, what, 120, No, So you would need like a, a millennium and a half. But, yeah, Hippos are probably killed more people than the U Civil War. Well, now we know the fun facts that you never think about otherwise. Um, at what point in this episode was the, the twist, supposed to be obvious that I had trouble figuring out. That was my problem. When is the twist obvious?
0:07:00: Um, at least after they, they meet the guy with the hole when he picks up his hat and I know she's gonna find blood or a hole because he's, I feel, I feel like as soon as you see them walking down the road, to be honest, I'm, I'm looking.
0:07:16: But that, that's, that's, we're in, like, we watch a Twilight Zone every week and we're in, guess the twist ted. Right.
0:07:21: Yeah, it was maybe for a casual TV audience.
0:07:25: But no, I'm pretty sure once once you find out that one guy was meant to be dead and he's got blood on his hat. Yeah. Yeah. Once, I mean, you know, we're like, I don't know, two minutes in, I was like, well, I guess I, this is, this is our Lost Island, is it or that place we hung out in the sixth season or whatever, except more depressing.
0:07:45: This is where the river that comes from. The Lost Island eventually floats. Yes. Yes. There we go. So, like these trails. Well, I, I guess this is a weird purgatory trail but, you know, I grew up like hiking these trails. So, you know, but, yeah, you know, when you hike, when you're live in the southeast, you're often hiking on, you know, like battlefield sites and stuff. Right? So, um, I, uh, the point being coming from Atlanta, you know, obviously we hear quite a lot about the civil war. What, what is your, your actual knowledge of the civil war?
0:08:18: Um, Slaves?
0:08:22: OK.
0:08:23: Uh, the North one.
0:08:24: OK.
0:08:25: The uniforms are kind of funky. Yeah.
0:08:29: Uh, it, it was less of a civil war than the War of Independence was.
0:08:34: Ok. Ok. Yeah. Yeah, that, that would definitely be the, the, um, the so-called civil war was pretty much fought on state lines, right? Whereas the war of Independence was much more an ideological grounds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, uh, slavery is one of the biggest issues. But, yeah, there's like eight different issues. Right. They, they pretend there's other issues because they don't want to admit they were fighting for slavery.
0:08:55: Well, I mean, that's the, read the rest of the world has on yoga.
0:08:58: Like, yeah, some of them are like economics but, well, it kind of boils down to that as well. Right. So, yeah.
0:09:05: Yeah, I mean, that was, yeah, it is economically advantageous to not have to pay your staff. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, the, the thing that people maybe don't think about enough is that for the north it wasn't like a morality, you know, like, move, it was just like, it was a political move. Like, it wasn't the gracious that move to win the war was to free the slaves. Right.
0:09:24: Yeah. Yeah. So, and, or to announce that, I mean, you know, basically it was just a idle threat when they first did it anyway because they were not in control of that area at the time.
0:09:34: No, it's like, um, World War Two. Right. We look at it now as we were fighting to stop the Nazis doing those heinous things and we were heroes. We didn't know most of the they were getting up to when we were fighting the war.
0:09:47: Like, I didn't like Germany.
0:09:49: Like, you know, I don't know what's going on and, uh, I, I don't have like, a good working knowledge of, like, 17th century, you know, British shenanigans with Cromwell and and knocking off the king and all that sort of stuff. And William and Mary, I can, like, spit out names by the secret that a lot of that's earlier. But, yeah.
0:10:10: Oh, oh, yeah. Earlier. The 17th century. Right. So.
0:10:13: Oh. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I'm centuries are stupid.
0:10:16: Yeah. Yeah. Like they, they really should match the, the first two digits of the year. I understand why they don't because then you have to have a zero.
0:10:23: But that's fine. Let's have a zeroth century. Let's support a zeroth century.
0:10:28: That's the movement we can all get behind. Yeah. Really? So, I don't, I don't think that's a bad idea.
0:10:34: Um, but I will say, um, I think, I think fiction doesn't do enough is like, yeah, the, the south did, should, were bad and didn't deserve to win that war.
0:10:48: The individual soldiers weren't all like evil voters or fighting for the, and I think we, we too often don't admit that like, you know, on both sides of the war, it's just young men who didn't deserve this.
0:11:02: Yeah. Yeah, because there was, you know, like, literally there were like brother fight, brother pro probably not in the same battlefield facing each other. Maybe that happened once and then the hippo killed them both.
0:11:13: I don't, I don't really know. Wasn't there? At least not that time. I was there later much, like 100 and 50 years later.
0:11:21: Were there any hippos?
0:11:22: No, no, we don't we don't have, I think they went, escape, escape, they went extinct in the southeast, I believe.
0:11:29: Yeah.
0:11:30: Now they just live in the bayou. Yeah. Hippos in the bayou.
0:11:36: The, the, the word ge.
0:11:39: Yeah. Sure. Why not?
0:11:43: Like a board of alligator horror movies? Give me a hip hop horror movie, right? This is one of those things though where it's like you can't really have laws to your purgatory because it doesn't make sense. She's there in her house. Everyone else is walking along and then Mr Lincoln's the caboose because the quote unquote tweet was so tweet twist, my God, my brain because the quote unquote twist was so, um so obvious, I assumed that we were meant to just know they're in Burgy and the twist was gonna be that she was dead too.
0:12:18: Well, if she's in purgatory, of course she's dead too.
0:12:21: Yeah.
0:12:22: So that's not a test but they did, they didn't really, they didn't make that like the big shocking, like, because they were like, oh, we'll see, we'll see you later. We're on our way, like they're just passing by, right? Yeah. It's like a, just a series of revelations by these people, right? Like our, our main, our two leads which, and it seems everyone else is pretty much like on board with this. So, you know, they're the two lost souls that don't quite get it. I don't, for whatever reason. Yeah, they haven't accepted it.
0:12:50: Yeah, I I guess it's a lack of accepting that they're dead. But, uh, because, uh, the Char Charlie's pretty lively. No, Charlie is the guy that lost three. Marvel. He's very deadly. Ok. Excuse me? I got the name wrong. Um, and then she just calls him Jam Sergeant all the time, so I can't actually remember what his name is. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're right. He, yeah, he's just sergeant. That was actually the name when I was doing the, uh, the, I thought I missed his name.
0:13:13: So the sergeant, I don't know. He's a interesting dude because he's kind of chipper. He's kind of positive, but he won't accept, I mean, he accepts it before she does. But, hm.
0:13:24: But I don't see what makes him different than the, the shell shot guys that are just, like, dutifully marching along to it.
0:13:30: Maybe it's his tunes.
0:13:32: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe he's not even beyond the grave.
0:13:35: We gotta take it to the afterlife is, yeah, it was a weird shaped guitar, but then he's like, he built it himself. I'm like, it's kind of, have you ever made your own guitar?
0:13:45: No, I have weird shaped guitars. No. Do you think, do you think if you made one it would look better than that? Oh, God. No, especially not.
0:13:52: Like, like if I were to make one, I, I, maybe I can manage an electric, I mean, you can get a set to build that acoustics are hard. You gotta, like, uh, well, that's why he's, it's so interesting. It was the other way around. You have to shape the wood. No. No, you gotta, like, cure the wood and shape it. But if you're making an electric guitar, how much of it are you making?
0:14:13: If you're making one from scratch, it's more difficult.
0:14:17: Yeah. Ok. Yeah. I'm thinking you could get a slab that's already a body or something. Like, I, I don't know, woodwork, you know, we live in, we live in Nagano in, in Japan and one of the reasons they make so many guitars here is because Nagano folks are good at woodwork. So after the war it's like, hey, how can we make, you know, some money, more money with our skills and it turned out to do that.
0:14:38: So, um, but yeah, yeah. Yeah, I, I was, I was impressed with his ingenuity and he got to take it, hey, they say you don't get to take anything to afterlife with you, but he gotta take that with them.
0:14:50: The, I guess.
0:14:53: Did she get to take the shotgun in her house? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The shotguns in her house. So she gets that. Well, that, that's why I'm not sure if she is dead yet or she's just seeing them pass by.
0:15:06: Oh, ok. You're, yeah, I mean, obviously I think it just the guys on the road or in like the, was how I was reading it.
0:15:12: Ok. No, I was pretty straight up. Like, ok, it's all, everyone on the screen is dead.
0:15:16: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that about two minutes and I was on board, like, well, first I didn't get the guy because I'm, like, the sergeant, like, this guy is getting increasingly creepier, creepier and creepier. Like, he, he's kind of creepy at first. Like, I, I thought he was, like, gonna try and do something untoward it. Like, it's like, yeah.
0:15:35: Do you mind if I have some water?
0:15:36: Do you mind if I sit down?
0:15:38: What if I play guitar?
0:15:40: But if I, uh, finger you a little bit.
0:15:42: Yeah, that's where, I mean, they weren't going there on 1961 television. But that's kind of like, that's where I smelled it going, like, especially because, you know, it's a twilight zone. So the fact that otherwise the guy seems relatively harmless can, easily, can quickly turn, you know? But, but he's a, he's a pretty stand up sergeant, I guess so. Good for him. He seems like a good guy. Yeah. He even didn't want to, like, take any revenge or whatever. He was past all that.
0:16:12: Yeah. Well, he figured it out earlier too. So, I mean, once, once she shoots the shotgun he's, he's already got it worked out. Yeah.
0:16:19: Um, the war really aged him. They say he's some, like, ridiculously young age in it. So, did you check whoever the actor was that age?
0:16:27: Oh, I didn't check because this is, this is, that does seem to be like a running theme on this podcast is that he's meant to be 32 but he's clearly a 50 year old actor. Oh, he was 28 when he played this.
0:16:38: Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I'm looking at different stuff here. But, uh, yeah, I'll, sorry, I did not, not have that particular thing on the docket.
0:16:47: So, if I search it it'll take too long.
0:16:51: So the, I'm trying to find you again in my Zoom windows. There we go. Ok, you're back. Hello?
0:16:58: Yeah, I mean, you didn't go anywhere. I just lost on my computer for a second trying to figure out how old that guy was, but I failed and wasted time. Ok.
0:17:07: Um Do we really need Abraham Lincoln to show up at the end and say he's the last victim of the civil war?
0:17:15: No, like, yeah, it did. It was a little weird like, oh, President of Lincoln, is that what happened? Because the twist is given away too early.
0:17:28: That's my thing.
0:17:29: Like you have to put something in there and his idea was, well, Chuck, they probably, so what do you prefer this appearance of Abraham Lincoln or the Star Trek one? Oh, the Star Trek one? Wait, are we talking Abraham Lincoln floating in space or Abraham Lincoln on the planet of good guys versus bad guys? Oh, is that, that's two different episodes, isn't it? Yeah, I, I, is it is it even Abraham Lincoln in the one I'm thinking of, oh, Abraham Lincoln does float in space and he is on a planet. I know.
0:18:01: Ok. Yeah, it might be two different episodes. Yeah, you can't really beat Abraham Lincoln floating in space. Can you, the twilight zone could have learned a lesson from a show made several years after this film was made. So, Yeah. So the this episode was 61.
0:18:19: Yeah.
0:18:20: Oh yeah, he was 50 years old. OK. And they said it was 30, You're the one who said he said he was very, I feel like that. He said something along those lines and I was like that guy is not. Yeah. OK. So yeah, full on 1911.
0:18:33: Ok. So at least he looked the right age. Yeah, for me because the general and beneath the plans, it doesn't seem like a young man at all or a young, he's in full eight, make up the whole time, but the voice definitely is not there.
0:18:49: There's so much build up to that reveal that you mentioned before with the, with the soldier that's missing an eye.
0:18:54: Um So the reveal wasn't shocking but I was like, Oh, that's surprisingly gory for 1961 network television, I guess in a way. Yeah.
0:19:03: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it looked gnarly. They call him blind, but it seemed one eye was still working. OK? If he, if he did lose both eyes, does that mean, he has to go through the afterlife blind.
0:19:12: Uh, maybe just the poetry bit.
0:19:14: Ok. Maybe you have another way of seeing. I, I, I don't really know. Well, he, yeah, because he seemed to be able to see them in some other way. Right.
0:19:21: Yeah, because he knew she was there before she said anything. I think the other thing is when he's, um, when the sergeant's first talking to him, I'm like, is he complicit in a murder because he's chatting the guy up and she, he knows he's going in to get a shotgun because she literally just said she was gonna do that if a union soldier shows up. So that the, the, the two possibilities there is a, does he already know?
0:19:43: Hm.
0:19:44: Um, that he's dead, right? In which case, he doesn't care if he gets shot.
0:19:50: But the sergeant, no, no. But I mean, if the sergeant, if the sergeant had, had figured out he was dead by that point, then he's not gonna be worrying about whether she shoots this other guy or not, right? Because it just doesn't make a difference.
0:20:01: Yeah. But you wouldn't know what happens in purgatory. Maybe you get maybe it, you know, the fire. But the other thing is he was trying to show her that this was a good man.
0:20:10: So maybe he was trying to talk her out of shooting at him.
0:20:12: Oh, ok. Well, that, that was, uh, yeah, because at that point. I think he mostly figured it out. But, I mean, how much do you, I mean, it would take quite a bit to just convince you that you are now dead if you are not thinking that you are currently dead. I mean, it's not gonna be like, oh, yeah, I am dead. You're, it's, it will take a little bit, I'm sure. Yeah. I've, I've never seen any work of fiction but I just like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
0:20:38: So, yeah, I mean, it's not something you want to hear, you know, ask Bruce Willis. Right.
0:20:44: That's the point of the movie.
0:20:47: What movie?
0:20:48: I don't know. I can't spoil that movie.
0:20:51: Ok, good. I thought you were about to spoil ending for me.
0:20:54: Ok. Um, you know, I've never seen that film. No, it, it's fine because someone mentioned there's a twist, I immediately guessed what the twist was gonna be and then I'm, like, watching it. I think, I think I saw it opening night just because it had, like, decent buzz. So, yeah, but my mom just came home, like, oh, there's a twist. You'll never guess it. And he's dead at the end.
0:21:17: She's like, yeah.
0:21:20: So I watched that then, well, see, see I was on the water so I just went to the opening night and watched it and I don't, I don't, I, well, I don't think I figured it out until it arrives. She might have said more than that. But my mom has a terrible habit of thinking. She's being subtle and just telling you something.
0:21:39: Of course, we can't know what's at the end of the road in this episode. But what's at the end of the road? The Wizard?
0:21:46: I mean, we've seen multiple various twilight zone. Afterlives.
0:21:50: So, just one of them, I guess a casino.
0:21:54: Um, maybe they each, and it seems that you each get your own individual heaven or hell in the twilight zone, right?
0:22:00: Possibly. I mean, we never even seen heaven. So, yeah, heaven is a new confederacy. Ok. That's, that's the, at the end of that road is the Firefly Universe.
0:22:14: But the Brown Jets get to or I pretending they're good guys.
0:22:19: Um, top five redneck names that Judd has to be near the top, but only with two Ds if it's one, I think this one's one D which doesn't do it for me. I need both of them.
0:22:29: Uh Yeah, I don't know. I definitely was picturing Judd with two Ds picture. I picture everyone with two Ds and anyway, I, um, yeah, I had the subtitles on and, and it was one and I, I think when I was doing the trivia it was also one. So, um, yeah, but I, with two top, um, I, I might have mentioned that's got to be up there.
0:22:53: That one seems a little too biblical to fully work though. Right. I see. To me, my redneck neck. Uh, yeah, I guess is the south but it's not quite redneck.
0:23:01: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, for, for women it's easy. It's just double barrel names, right?
0:23:07: Mary Lou. Cindy Lou? Oh, I was thinking double letters. Ok. You mean the, like that? Yeah.
0:23:13: Um, Cletus, the Simpsons got Cletus in there, but I don't think there's actually many people named Cletus is there, is, has been ruined by the Simpsons doing it. Now.
0:23:22: T Judd. Is that his name? I don't know. It should be.
0:23:26: I might be right. I might be dredging out some, like, totally, like, you know, specific trivia there.
0:23:32: I mean, you, you knew a lot of people who were getting up to some redneck and what were they called?
0:23:35: Oh, that, that's the story I was gonna tell. Which I know that's the story you're gonna tell me. I've known you long enough.
0:23:40: You just have the same set of stories you tell. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is just where. Yeah. Yeah. Just if, if someone's wondering what I'm talking about, uh, us pulling up on a, in a Alabama lake to pulling up on, on ski dos or whatever, to an encampment and meeting buff and Bubba.
0:23:56: So, I guess buff and Bubba would be the top two for me just because of experience.
0:24:02: Yeah.
0:24:03: I mean, what, what, what is the, the English version? It would be a north country farmer name or, uh, uh, west country farmers where I grew up. But yeah, there's basically everywhere that's not London is considered country pumpkins as some description.
0:24:18: Wait, what's, what's the British pumpkin name?
0:24:21: I just want to try to think because I don't think their names are that different.
0:24:24: I did grow up in quite a countryside. But, but yeah, I, I grew up in, literally the city where Hot Fuzz is filmed, right? Um, but the, the names are no different than anywhere else in London, in the UK. Well, the Welsh would have some different names, wouldn't they? A little bit? Yeah. But these different spellings, but I think England's names are pretty, remember that England is smaller than most American States. So that's why I was sitting here wondering if there was just a bumpkin name for, for the, for the UK. But it may be, but I don't think they have as much of a variety in the language. You've entered the bumpkin zone.
0:25:02: My least favorite on like the hedgehog level.
0:25:06: Um, questions for this episode? Who in this episode is in the twilight zone? Well, that we do actually disagree on this then because you think it's everyone, but I'm pretty sure it's everyone but her. Oh, ok. Why not her? Then? I just got the impression that she wasn't that the others were dead and she was seeing them pass, like it's called the Passers by as they were passing by. Uh, but now that you finish the episode or are you putting her in as well, or because of her perception? Not, but she's got the, she's got the perception most tweaked in this episode, doesn't she? I guess, yeah, I guess if going to the Twilight Zone is like, getting that information, then maybe she's the one who most went into the twit zone.
0:25:47: Yeah. Whereas the sergeant had more of like a leisurely stroll into the Twilight zone.
0:25:51: He, yeah, it's hard to tell if he was ever like, not away, he was in the twilight zone.
0:25:56: Mm And like by this episode, Lincoln is just off the Twilight zone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, putting Lincoln in your show is basically the Twilight Zone even if it's an Oscar winning movie because yeah, I was gonna say like when this came out, would people have seen that as cringe? Do you think they have been 100% on board with it?
0:26:18: I don't know this, this is about the time when um maybe a year or two after this is, was the world's fair. Were great moments with Mr Lincoln was one of Disney's contributions to the world's fair and a massive hit. So people loved it. They loved, they loved seeing animatronic Lincoln. So maybe they love seeing him at the end of this episode.
0:26:36: Yeah, you're probably right.
0:26:37: I was listening to another podcast recently.
0:26:40: Um You know, James and Matt who've been on our other podcast.
0:26:45: They did star calls, they recently did Marvel calls because they had never seen any of the Marvel movies and they got to Iron Man three and it's like, what you've gotta choose. Do we Save Pepper or the President?
0:26:57: But that question is meaningless now because the, the office of the presidency has just lost all like prestige. Like you would never choose the president of your wife anymore.
0:27:11: Like even like post Trump, right? You don't look at Joe Biden and be like, my God, the president of the United States or its like, uh I'm, I'm impressed this guy is still together. I mean, like, physically, like, at all, I mean, you know, like he's holding together, right? Just expect his arm to fall off at some point.
0:27:30: So, yeah, the, I, I wonder how much that has retroactively, like, tainted previous presidents and now when Lincoln shows you up, you're like, yeah. Ok, great. It's just a bloke whose job it was to?
0:27:41: He, he, he was a war president. War presidents are guilty of war crimes.
0:27:47: Yeah.
0:27:48: And there hasn't been a peace president the entire history. The last not war president. Yeah. Didn't, didn't we, didn't you check it once? And it's like the US has been at peace for like 17 years of its existence or something? It's something like that. Yeah, it's a really a really short time. So, um well, uh what is my question? Do they deserve their trip into the Twilight zone? Am I asking about all the casualties of the civil war or am I just ask? I mean, we talked about this isn't kind of the point of this story that no, none of them do you deserve but they, they're all gonna die. Like, what is it? You, you only walk this road if you die of horrible circumstances because she died of fever. Right. So, she didn't just have a, I mean, she didn't get shot in the head, I guess.
0:28:35: But, uh, I mean, everyone would have to walk this road eventually but maybe less bewildered. Maybe they didn't just get traumatized on the battlefield.
0:28:46: Mm. Well, because she, yeah, they were walking by her house because they're all on the walk. Whereas she's just, you know, maybe she doesn't need to go and follow them on that road. Maybe she can just pass the more peaceful way.
0:28:58: And then her husband had a relatively stupid death some time before he, he died in, like a bar, right?
0:29:04: Did you say he died in Gettysburg?
0:29:06: Oh, did he? Ok. It gets, well, again it gets confusing. Ok.
0:29:09: May, maybe, I think anyone died in a bar. I don't know where you got that from.
0:29:13: I don't either. Ok. Maybe. Yeah, I, I, for some reason I thought he got in a scuffle, like, with a rebel, I'm not rebel. A union guy, like, off battlefield. But I guess it was on battlefield. He got shot. So.
0:29:25: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did she just say because she doesn't know specifically who killed him? She's just like a Yankee.
0:29:31: So maybe she was just, like, like trying to, like what kind of the situation was like? Ok. So, but yeah, she does say get his, like, three or four times. Ok. So, like, but that's my point to all of these people, like, uh, you have to have a traumatic death to go through this particular purgatory.
0:29:47: I mean, it almost feels like it's this Pacific war in this purgatory, right? Because they're all on the same road, maybe. Well, maybe at the point of it is um if they have it's to put them on the same road to reconcile them and that's why she gets to be on it because she's still harboring this. Like she wants vengeance on just any of them, right?
0:30:08: Whereas maybe the point of this whole purgatory is to like, look, you're all going to the same place, let's put these differences behind you now.
0:30:14: So even though she didn't die in the battle, she still needs that lesson.
0:30:18: Yeah, this episode is obviously about the emotional beats and the that Phil in the Phils philosophical points of revenge. And I'm I'm just sitting here trying to work out the logistics of, of it because it's, you know, kind of fun sometimes.
0:30:30: How does purgatory work? Uh I, I guess Dante still has the best description for that. So ever read the purgatorial Um, I'm mostly familiar with poor because that's what they call it in the, the Bayonetta games inspired.
0:30:49: Ok. So in, they, they, they have Italian politicians in there too. Oh, they have vague European countries that are not just explained. Ok. So they can just, I mean, those whole games are our Catholic guilt. So, these are the details.
0:31:07: Yeah.
0:31:08: Um, where did, what kind of trip a meter utterance? Do you want a foot here?
0:31:16: See, for me it's not that high. Mhm but maybe what like it's impossible to do this but watching it in the 60s that maybe you hadn't, it didn't seem as cheaty for Lincoln to show up and stuff. I was thinking like when this episode aired, the Civil War had ended less than 100 years ago, Right? Whereas now this episode is like 62 years old for us. Yeah, we're almost uh equally removed. Uh So, so yeah, it is a very different feeling when you were growing up in of Lama. Did it feel like the Civil War was recent history? Oh God. No, not recent history at all. Ok. But, but I think we still saw more trappings of it then uh again, uh the Georgia state flag did not drop the confederate battle flag to like the 90s, right?
0:32:07: And then we were not the last state to do that because growing up in the UK in the 90s, World War II definitely felt fairly recent. But my grandparents had, if they didn't fight, they at least, um, like, literally rationing and stuff because they were kids. I don't have, I don't think I ever felt World War II is particularly reason, but we also had Vietnam to, you know. Well, that's it. Yeah, we haven't really had anything since we had the falklands but again, uh, 17 years of America's history, not war.
0:32:39: World War II more reason like Pearl Harbor. Did it touch your shores? Right.
0:32:44: Not, yeah. Yeah, there was a few submarine skirmishes off right off. The, our actual cities were bombed, right. And it was a quick hop and a skip over to France to, like, absolute devastation. So, yeah. Yeah.
0:32:58: Maybe for you, the civil war felt closer because it was geographically closer even if it wasn't in terms of time.
0:33:05: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I, where my parents' house is, who knows what went on there because that was certainly in the, the, you know, the realm of battle. So, uh, they said that half the campsite you go to are like, oh, this was this, so, and so battle, you know, or whatever.
0:33:22: Do you ever find a bullet or anything like that?
0:33:25: Uh, I mean, they have that stuff in the stores too, don't they? Um, I, I don't just mean, I got into Walmart and buying a magazine. I mean, I know, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. I'm just sitting here, I'm just sitting here thinking if I ever found anything of like, particular note I can't, or, or like, maybe someone I was around it, you know.
0:33:44: Um, honest, honestly I'm, I guess I'm gonna say no, but it seems like perfectly in the realm of possibility. Sure.
0:33:52: I mean, I guess I wasn't looking for it, man, you know. So hiking, that sort of thing. I mean, I wasn't like obsessing on the civil war when I was at the battlefield. It's just like, you know, you see the occasional cannon sitting around and uh the memo, the memorials and stuff, right? So, hm, I see.
0:34:08: Anyway, I guess, um, my score for this is, uh, I'm thinking around 3.5. Um I, the atmospherics are pretty trippy, I think.
0:34:18: Have you played Metal Gear Solid 3?
0:34:22: I have not.
0:34:24: So one of the bosses in that can like talk to ghosts and you have to walk down like a riverbed past the ghost of every soldier you've killed up to that point in the game.
0:34:36: So if you play, you can play that game completely non non lethally. In which case, it's a quick stroll and then you can shoot the pass.
0:34:43: But if you played it like me just playing like Rambo. Oh, there's your beep, sorry. Um Then, yeah, you basically get a reenactment of this episode of the Twilight Zone. Um, but that, that's an example of where the interactive element of that medium can add something. Right. Right. Because you can have a peaceful stroll or a stroll that you're facing like your own actions. Right. Yeah. No, they did. There was no scene in this where, like, they met someone specifically they'd killed. True. True. Which maybe would have been, what would have pushed it into a more, well, he was definitely for me, what, what was the situation with him and the dude who had lost an eye because they were definitely that guy, he'd helped him and then he got shot in the eye.
0:35:30: Ok. There you go. So he, he did witness his death at least. But yeah, but he was not a, yeah, they did not.
0:35:37: Yeah, they were actually helping each other somewhat, I guess.
0:35:40: Yeah. There he gives them water later. Uh, that is weird. Like he, the bullet goes through him but he still want, needs the water, huh?
0:35:48: Choose one.
0:35:50: I think that's a common thing is that you need water and afterlife stories, right?
0:35:55: Yeah. Ok. Cross in the room. I feel like I've come across that before.
0:35:59: I mean, I guess that's what this is with the mist and stuff. This is your river sticks, right? So, yeah, so I, I, I did wonder if they're going to push the water a little more because of that. But yeah.
0:36:08: Um, but then I was like, well the bullet went through him but he needs to drink with the, shouldn't the water just spill right out of the bottom or did the bullet go through him or just not do anything?
0:36:19: Did she even fire a bullet? Right.
0:36:21: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe she didn't load it. Maybe she's nicer than we thought.
0:36:24: Oh, no, no. Maybe, maybe the gun doesn't fire bullets in purgatory. Right. Like, it wouldn't actually be bullets from a shotgun. It would be, uh, shells.
0:36:35: Yeah. Ok. Sure.
0:36:37: I, I, I recently learned that in the, uh, a decade after, in the, um, the wild west. If you, if you really wanted to be effective, uh, in times of trouble you're better off with a sawed off shotgun than a revolver. So, the law guys would have saw off shotguns and most cowboys didn't have a gun at all because they were expensive and they didn't want to get into trouble.
0:37:00: So, yeah. But if you were a sharp shooting bandit, then you'd have that. Yeah. I mean, these guys have guns, of course they're in a war, should I say? I hope they have guns? Because I bet some of them didn't.
0:37:10: Oh, yeah, I'm sure plenty of blokes were marched off with just a, a broom and a pat on the back. Yeah. Yeah, they went.
0:37:18: So I, I was about to, oh, I hope they have guns. So, I was like, wait, no, I, I, I don't hope that. Ok, well, war, war is problematic, I guess, is the basic, I hope the organs took all their weapons away.
0:37:30: Yeah, I'll go with that. Ok.
0:37:32: Uh, do you have any final thoughts on this bit of, of civil war? Trippiness?
0:37:39: No, I mean, I guess just as, as I've, as I've probably gotten across, I'm not that familiar with the civil war and it does seem odd how much cultural cachet it still kind of has in America.
0:37:57: Like, it's not like Brits, ever think about the War of Independence anymore.
0:38:02: Or even like the 100 years war with France. You know, basically, I would, I would emotional connection to history kind of stops at World War Two. Yeah, I, I will say when people would visit Atlanta like it and, and you know, Japanese friends would visit Atlanta places we take them to. It often include the Cyclorama, which is the giant painting of the battle of Atlanta Stone Mountain, which has defensive carvings on it and lots of old timey south stuff. Um The, the Margaret O Mitchell House uh where she wrote, Gone with the Wind. I mean, a lot of the places you would take people, Ken Mountain, that's a battle. You take a lot of the people, places you take people to have at least some civil war imagery or, or something.
0:38:47: So like in the UK, you would take people to historical places. It's just that the history is much more ancient, I guess.
0:38:55: And all of that, that's also just because we've got older history maybe. But and I'd pretty much say all of the historical places around Lata would be considered civil war place. I think of anything else that kind of fits the bill. Um, oh, I don't know. I see. Oh. Oh, I think there's a revolutionary war battle site about an hour north of Atlanta. But that, yeah, so that, that's slightly different. But, uh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, as far as historical sites, it's all civil war stuff in the south, I guess any history before those two wars has been erased. Well, no, and, yeah, no one, I mean, let's face it basically. No, nobody was really living there, you know, I mean, a few people but not that many.
0:39:38: Is that what they tell you at your school?
0:39:40: Well, even now the southeast population is nothing like the northeast population. Yeah, I know. I know.
0:39:45: It's, it's, it's not ideal living conditions. Right.
0:39:49: Yeah. Yeah. So, pre civil war, I mean, there were, there were people but not like there were in the north and certainly not like in Europe, right? Like population, let's say in Europe was already, had been kicking for hundreds of years. So, um, ok, we're tying this one up today this time enough podcast on Twitter on Facebook on Patreon. You can support us under podcast too is where we have a call Disney, talk about Disney films and in the weird sense of the word, uh, Luke and I have, have started looking at the top 100 bottom 100 rated movies on I M DB for films and filth. So come hear us watch movies we want to see and ones we don't want to see and ones we might be surprised to see.
0:40:34: Hm, I guess. And at that same link podcast podcast us on Patreon, you can find the other podcast that I do not with. Matt.
0:40:42: You. Luke loves Pokemon, which just hit 60,000 downloads this week.
0:40:46: Um That's probably more than that. That's just since we moved over to this provider, there's Monster Mash, which is actually just winding down as we speak because we've talked about all the monsters for the time being and there's the game show, the game, game show, a game show about games Where three or 4 British guys swear insults at each other for about an hour.
0:41:05: Alrighty. So gonna head on down that trail literally now, it's not foggy though and I don't think I'm dead but you know, and sometimes you literally like is that how you feel your job at this point?
0:41:27: Try to the and you know that they hate only pushes behind you.
0:41:47: If you ever doubt enough, you will see that the street just moves on then and Jesus and uh mhm and, and today you that,
0:43:49: yeah, we were the woods. Mhm mm uh Let me feel down and I see that the street. Yeah,