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0:00:03: It is the middle ground between light and shadow between science and superstition and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is Time Enough podcast.
0:00:39: Hello, welcome to Time Enough Podcast. It's where we plunge into episodes of the Twilight Zone and beyond. As always, this is Matt here coming back for another round from the Mission Log. The Oroville podcast is Mike Richards. Howdy, Howie Matt. How are you, sir?
0:00:59: Pretty good. I, I, I, I think I got that nice gravel in my voice this morning.
0:01:03: Yeah, I got the same thing I noticed when you said plunge back into it. I was thinking like, like the, the assassin's knife plunging into a, a dictator's back maybe.
0:01:13: Yeah. Yeah, something like that.
0:01:14: Oh, sorry, I was, I just did the episode, the grave which has some, you know, plunging a, a dagger into the grave. But no, this is just like a rolling out of rolling out of bed, you know, manly voice. Uh going on here. So, yes, I, I I will.
0:01:27: This is not even my earliest podcasting slot I've done for people in the UK. I've done six A MS. So, oh baby six AM. And I need to sound coherent about something. I hope, you know, you know, like a, like a great speaker like Peter Falk and today's best Peter Falk Colombo. I kept saying I kept waiting for him to say one more thing before you go. I got one more question.
0:01:54: Yeah. Yeah. But he, he tricks us into thinking he's like Fidel Castro in this one, right? Or something like that. But, you know, I mean, it might be a, might be a sign of my, you know, lack of, you know, cultural nuance or being able to detect cultural nuances. I found unbelievable.
0:02:09: Yeah. Sure. Um, and, well, I'm about to do trivia here and the, um, it's an interesting mix of people if any of them actually.
0:02:20: Uh, Latino, I don't know if any of these people are actually the only other one that maybe Arthur.
0:02:31: But I don't think that's probably the right pronunciation of his name and I don't even think he made it to my. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's the last one. Oh, yeah, because at, at the very end I was sitting there thinking, oh, ok. This guy is like Hispanic. I'm like, wait a minute. I just did like seven people here anyway. I guess. I, I, I, I told you, you, you'll probably be able to, you know, get in a little nap during this trivia because we do have so many actors in this, that have a, yeah, we sure do. And uh Rodolfo Hoyos might, might answer the answer the mail when you get to, when you, if, if he's made it into the trivia. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's like, you know, when there's like one main guy and 1236, you know, all equally status, supporting people, it's like, well, I can't leave anyone out. So here we go.
0:03:18: Original air date was October 20, and the script is a sterling.
0:03:24: This is right smack in the middle of director Don Medford's five twilight zone episodes. He'll be back in a few weeks for death's head revisited.
0:03:33: Fidel Castro. I mean, Ramos Clemente was played by Peter Falk. Peter is best known for his decades long stint as T V's Colombo and he appeared in films such as Murder Incorporated Murder by Death along with many other non murder related films in 1962 he was the first actor to be nominated for an Oscar and an Emmy. In the same year, General De Cruz was played by Will Koliva. He doesn't have many professional credits and generally appeared in smaller character actor roles in films like the Spiral Road starring Rock Hudson and the man from uncle film compilation, The Spy In the Green Hat film compilations. And they took, you know, put two, a two parter together and threw it on the big screen.
0:04:19: Richard Cardin was Dear Dear Leandro. I sure, I just got that wrong. OK. The short lived DeAndre. Thank you. You, yeah, you did it. OK. Well, he appeared in many films during the 1950s. He most often went uncredited. So maybe you just like to hang around on movie sets. I don't know.
0:04:39: Vladimir Sokolov was father Tomas. He regularly appeared on the stage in his film career. Tracks all the way back to the silent era after immigrating to the States in 1937 he was often chosen to represent a myriad of ethnicities and appeared in films such as Road To Morocco Monster from Green Hell, The Magnificent Seven. And William Castle's Mr Sardonic.
0:05:03: We've already seen him here in the episode. Static and he'll be back for the gift.
0:05:09: Anthony Carbone was Cristo.
0:05:11: His career had him taking on plenty of supporting roles in Roger Corman American international production productions. I wrote a IP productions. So that means I wrote productions twice. OK, like the Pit and the Pendulum and a bucket of Blood.
0:05:25: In 1974 he appeared in the last porno flick, but I think they kept making those movies. Anyway.
0:05:31: Garcia is a name.
0:05:33: I know, I know it, it, it's titillating. Garcia is played by Rodolfo Hoyas Junior. The bulk of his career was as a studio genre player in the 19 fifties with a standout role in 1956. The brave one.
0:05:48: Finally, we've got author as Tabal Batan appeared in a slew of TV, guest appearances mostly westerns and sci-fi though he wears Scientist blue as Di Amato in the Star Trek episode that which survives, he gets red shirted awfully quickly.
0:06:06: He'll later appear in the TV, in the TV movie, Evil Roy Slade and end his career as Mr Kirkland in four Police Academy movies. So, well, you never know when, uh, Lee Meriweather is gonna show up and say that she is for you and, and when that happens it's just, uh, it's just time to go. Yeah. So apparently, I guess this is where they take Taco Berry to meet Pops and, and Pops is this guy. So it's, I mean, the last time I saw a Police Academy movie, I was, like, young enough to think it was funny. So the last one I think I watched was, was, uh, in the, in, I saw it in the theater in right around 1991. So I think Bobcat Goldthwait was involved. There were balloons. Maybe somebody could tell us which, which episode that was, I think it was probably around four or five.
0:06:54: No, I remember probably 234, maybe five regularly getting the V H S s for as a, as a kid, but not getting the first one much, which is the only one that, you know, might, that is generally considered to, maybe not be horrible. But, yeah, little, little interesting side note on the episode of, um, that, which survives on Star Trek um story credit by Michael Richards. Um Not me, I wasn't around and not the Seinfeld actor. Um That was one of the, one of the Gnomes De Plume that uh Dorothy DC Fontana would use if she didn't exactly want her name associated with a certain episode.
0:07:31: Um, and it was the, it was the name of her two brothers, uh Michael and Richard and that's, she used that for a number of stories.
0:07:39: So she basically Alan Smith that episode.
0:07:42: Oh, yeah, 100%.
0:07:44: I've got the, uh, prolog up for you here. So if you'll have a run, you can do your Peter fog if you want.
0:07:51: Oh, I don't, I don't know that. I uh I haven't, I didn't practice a Peter Falk. Maybe you, maybe you were alluding to that. So maybe, maybe you were just alluding to doing a sling or not. I don't know. I think I'll, I think I'll try, I think I'll try a sir.
0:08:04: Just don't turn on the, the crazy rever uh voice filter that people are gonna hear in, in about two weeks. Little little teaser for, for that. Ok. Go ahead. All right.
0:08:13: This is the face of Ramos Clemente a year ago, a beardless nameless worker of the dirt who plotted behind a mule burrowing someone else's land.
0:08:27: And he looked up at a hot central American Sun and he pledged the impossible.
0:08:33: He made a vow that he would leak an avenging army against the tyranny that put the ache in his back and the anguish in his eyes.
0:08:42: And now one year later, the dream of the impossible has become a fact in just a moment, we will look deep into this mirror and see the aftermath of a rebellion in the twilight zone.
0:08:56: All righty. Um We'll throw our observations at the episode first off, the thing that got me um was just how they start off. OK. Here's Fidel Castro, here's Jay. But no, no, it's definitely not. This is Central America, this is the Central America Cuba. Yeah. And, and, and these are two totally different people like different names, different, different country.
0:09:17: And um there's the one where someone actually says to him like something along the lines of like, who do you think you are Fidel Castro? It's like, yes, yes, that's right.
0:09:26: Yes. That's exactly what I think I am. Look. I know.
0:09:30: And again, uh I, I it's, it's a little bit of a low blow to uh keep citing things you see because you're watching Completely Crisp Blu Ray. But um the, the amount of uh fake mustache was just amazing as you could see.
0:09:44: I was watching.
0:09:46: Yeah, I watched it streaming on Paramount Plus. So I didn't uh get that same uh in your face kind of fake facial hair. In fact, I even wondered honestly if, if Peter Fox didn't grow a grow a beard for the rule, apparently he didn't though, according to the Blu Ray, uh, I mean, there were, there were a few people that seemed to have some real hair but like I just noticed a couple of people, like, oh, that's definitely an application there, you know, or maybe they, like had the mustache but not the beard or something, you know. Yeah, Deano definitely looked, uh, fake, fake beard and mustache, uh, from, from Jump Street. Um, but Peter Falk looked a little more convincing to me then again, like I said, and we've had this, you know, this discussion a number of times with, uh, with streaming services and, uh not to pick on Paramount plus, but it seems kind of particularly with them.
0:10:35: It's, it's, uh, the resolution leaves a little to be desired.
0:10:40: Yeah. And, and I mean, you know, I watched these a couple of times so it was like the first time I was not sitting there like, you know, counting the hairs of a fake beard or anything, you know, maybe that, that was like the third time.
0:10:53: I was like, hey, let's take a little, a little more of a closer look at this. So good. Well, I, I was, I was really, um, I, I love the simplicity of the episode. I mean, everything taken place In one room, right? I mean, this was, this was a one room was, did anything happen outside of that room?
0:11:13: I, well, that guy fell, I fell out of another window but, uh, he fell out of a balcony, like, but, but, but from that same room, right. Yeah, I mean, you might see my not toilet, so death by window number 47. Right.
0:11:25: I did, I did see that Deest, there's, there's one, uh, was it, I think there was one a few weeks ago where someone's kind of like near by a window or like?
0:11:37: Oh. Oh, that's another little preview for the midnight somewhere. Someone is like kind of lingering around a window or they're gonna fall out the window and they, they don't, but yeah, just assume they're about to because don't, don't get near a window in the uh in the twilight zone. Um Yeah, but I guess that was a, a good way to, um, you know, offset the budget for all the guest stars, you know, because it seemed like it was a kind of a large cast and uh just, just, you know, kind of one room, a balcony, a mirror and a door for Father Thomas to kind of hide behind for a couple of minutes. Very much a uh a bottle episode, I guess. Well, more like a stage play in this case, but just um a couple, I had a couple style notes. Uh when he first comes in, there's the, the large picture of the previous dictator and I was just like, man, I, I really wish that was like Geo the Carpathian that would be so great or some kind of event or whoever.
0:12:32: Um, I don't even know. This is, this is kind of how ignorant I am but whoever was, you know, the head of government prior to Fidel Castro in Cuba could have been a, a very similar, uh, inspired by shot. There would have been some inside.
0:12:46: Oh, yeah, maybe two inside Central America.
0:12:50: No, that's right. That's right. No, The other one. Um, yeah, the, the, this is 1961, right? So his medallion is way too small but you know, with the beard and stuff, I just make the next um Star Trek reference. We were getting so close to Disco Bones like in 1941.
0:13:09: So the, the, the best mccoy, of course, I mean, I know there's been some, some, some the novelization of Star Trek, the motion picture and some other stories, but I don't think anything's canon as to like what exactly Bones was doing when Admiral de Gura used that seldom used reserve activation clause. In other words, they drafted him.
0:13:33: Um uh What was he doing, man? Like a party to the key party?
0:13:38: I thought maybe, maybe he was uh you know, in a revolution somewhere.
0:13:43: Yeah, a disco revolution. Yeah, for sure.
0:13:45: I mean, you know, if that movie does have a flaw, it's that he, the next scene he shows up in uniform and shaving. So that's, that's not cool. These guys are never gonna shave in this episode. But uh no, they're not.
0:13:57: How famous was. Well, I mean, neither of us really know, but how famous was Chey Guar in 1961? I feel like I'm not sure when he really started getting on people's dorm walls. Did he have to, you know, die first for that?
0:14:11: I have, I have no idea. I, I really don't like that, that whole scene, uh was, um, you know, kind of, you know, before my time and the whole um yeah, he, he, he just, he never showed up on my door wall. I'll just, I'll just say that.
0:14:30: Yeah, I'm trying to think of when he would have like started appearing when I was in high school and lots of Bob Marley around but not so, yeah, it seems like a hippie kind of Woodstock, you know, late sixties kind of thing probably. Yeah, I mean, I read a notable book on him a few years ago. So, uh I, I don't remember who the author or what the name was, but it supposed to be one of the more definitive ones and it's quite interesting to, to follow um a revolutionary career, right? So, because uh I don't know, I mean, after the Cuban revolution, he went and got himself involved in a few African revolutions and uh then a few South American revolutions and that's where the CIA sort of caught up with him, right.
0:15:12: So, yeah, I didn't, I didn't know any of that so, you know, Fidel Castro was living in these large, well then at now government buildings where uh was, was out like in a tent most of the time. So, um I don't know. And, and the fact that I think uh he was kind of like they kind of wanted him to go start some other revolution so he wouldn't stay in Cuba and be popular.
0:15:38: OK. I guess so. There was so maybe that was definitely a, you know, connection to the level of um paranoia or, or kind of not, I guess not an example of keeping your enemies close, keeping your enemies far away or your potential, your potential uh uh revolutionary. Well, there's always that guy isn't there? I mean, I mean, when they wrote, when Rod Sterling wrote this episode, I mean, he already knew about Trotsky, right?
0:16:06: So, you know, it's easy to peg him as a, as a Trotsky.
0:16:10: I, I guess he doesn't come across as the, the right hand man. And I, and she wasn't quite a right hand man. I mean, you know, um pastor his brother for that. Right. So, yeah, it seemed like in this de la Sandro was the right hand man. And ironically the first one to be uh uh I don't know if pushing off a balcony is considered an execution and if he's not a murderer, if he wasn't a murderer, was he a murderer? Because you can't, everybody knows and they cannot uh you can't murder a murderer, they can only be executed.
0:16:37: Well, there is the, the theory that, um every head of state is a, is a war criminal.
0:16:44: That's, yeah, that's, uh, that's an interesting theory. Uh Probably, probably has some validity to it.
0:16:52: Uh America. It's like the, it's like, let's see what presidents didn't, like, technically kill someone. And I'm like, I guess Carter didn't, maybe they say he was the only guy that there were never shots fired during his presidency and that there is, like, in the entire history of the United States there's been AAA, very small number of, like, single digit years where that's been the case.
0:17:18: Yeah. Yeah, I, um, I, I think I heard 17 since the 1776. So not too far above single digits.
0:17:26: Yeah. So single digit on each hand, if you had seven fingers on one hand.
0:17:31: Right. Right.
0:17:32: If you can, if you, if you're sort of person who needs to get to 20 and you look at your toes. Yeah.
0:17:38: Um, and, and possibly the only president that didn't do it for all four of theirs. So other presidents might have had a two or three good years and then, like, one off year and, uh, with, with, you know, media that said, like, um, you know, like every, every president gets like, two free contracts or something.
0:17:59: Yeah, that, it, one of the things that I thought was really, really, I think, well, done in the episode was the, the often unmentioned. Although they, they did mention it a couple of times sound of executions in the background, you know, the countdown and fire and the gunshots and then again and again and again, you know, and father Tomas pointed out that it's been going on for a week and uh the people are growing appalled, I guess that's, uh you know, you wanna see your stuff on the screen but it like, you're like, this was all in one room but you know, you very clearly see like execution scenes and, and the two um the two inner circle guys kind of rolling up to the, to the base and getting murdered, you know, or assassinated or whatever, like you see that play out in your head because we see those sorts of things on the news or whatever all the time.
0:18:55: So we see in other movies. So it's very easy just to kind of extrapolate and uh have it play in your head for this. So yeah, there's, there's no reason for, you know, I mean, that was done very well with a phone call where he's, you know, where um uh the dictator said do it and then he got the call back saying it was done. I mean, there was no, no reason I didn't think at all to, to add another scene in there and show something like that that just, I think it was done. Really really well and very, uh, very effectively. I thought too without having, having to see it.
0:19:30: Um, another thing that got me too was where the, uh, Peter Falk at one point said something along, I know what these people are like. All they want is they have a short memory.
0:19:48: They like, what do you say? They like cheap entertainment and they have a short memory, something along those lines. Which is, yeah, kind of, kind of. Right. So, yeah, and I thought, I thought that was really, really apropo as far as, you know, how to, how many people think of the masses and how to, you know, manage and govern people when they know that whatever this is we can, we can weather this storm, we can get through it and we can get on to the next thing because at the end of the day things like this don't get remembered long. You know, we can, even though it's a horrible atrocity folks will be moving on to the next, the next thing.
0:20:27: Yeah. Some, something that got one. He, yeah, he goes basically, uh, paranoid psychotic and sweaty within five minutes.
0:20:35: Well, the sweaty, because it's, it's pretty hot in central central America.
0:20:41: So, I, it's just, yeah, I guess, you know, I just did this, I used to the midnight sun and there's such, both of them are very sweaty episodes. So, the sweatiest TV you'll come across in 1961.
0:20:54: Yeah. The last, the last episode we covered, I covered with you was, uh, I think 100 yards over the rim and, uh, not as much sweat there because they're out in the desert. It's more of a dry heat.
0:21:02: So, uh, you know, if you, well, yeah, it's just instantly evaporating. That's could be quite dangerous.
0:21:09: Um, the, the, the scene with the previous, um, despot, I guess, dictator, whatever he was. Um, I had a couple of observations there. One of, one of which he's making fun of his, his uniform being dirty. I'm like, that's your fault.
0:21:26: It's dirty because if it's not for you, he'd probably be in a nice pressed, uh, uniform right now.
0:21:30: Um, and he gets so vindictive it's like the, the Pontius pilot wash away. Except that, um, you know, without that David Bowie. Cool, that sort of thing.
0:21:43: And, yeah, he, he definitely did throw the, you know, it's almost kind of the same, it's probably, it's probably used time and time again. What's sticking in my mind is from Hamilton. When, um, King George came out and said, all right, you're independent.
0:22:02: Have at it. Now you're gonna see how hard it is to lead. Um, you know, with one of his, you'll be back, uh, tunes. So it's kind of that same thing. It's like, all right, you're in charge now. It's a lot, it's gonna be a lot harder, a lot more complicated than you think. And there are gonna be people coming from you and you can see him in that mirror.
0:22:22: Yeah, I thought of the return of the Jedi throne ruins seem a little bit too where the emperor's like, go ahead and murder and you know, take your mantle and it just keeps chiding him along. Uh Of course, and in that, in that case, uh the emperor is still going to technically be on top until, until things go wrong for him. But uh but I, I, I thought of that a little bit as well. But yeah, yeah, the mirror that, that was a nice scene of a psychosis.
0:22:49: Nice seed. I said Seed, nice, see to psychosis for um for the new guy Ramos Clemente who is not Fidel Castro, not at all. But it was interesting because like what, what's sort of the, you know, a common metaphor for paranoia is always looking over your shoulder, right? You're always looking over your shoulder to see who's after you when I have this mirror and you can look over your shoulder without physically looking over your shoulder.
0:23:15: Uh But you're using this mirror to do it.
0:23:18: And I thought it was a great metaphor for paranoia and how you can see uh again over your shoulder without looking there and kind of see things that aren't reality because it's a mirror. But it looks an awful lot like reality.
0:23:33: I thought it was, I thought it was neat.
0:23:35: Yeah. And I, I love the fact that the people he's seeing are always the people in the room.
0:23:41: Right. Like, if, you know, I was thinking, oh, he'll see, like, you know, like people who aren't there. But I'm like, no, he's seeing people that are there and just, like, you know, projecting onto that. Maybe, I mean, it's, there's no reason to even think there's anything supernatural. Uh, the film makes it supernatural because they're, you know, holding like nooses and, and machine guns and stuff. So, yeah. So it was a machine gun that you guys had the knife and then the, the last guy had the, the glass of wine.
0:24:06: Um You know, I guess I should probably point out we don't know that he was wrong, you know, I mean, maybe, maybe those folks would have come after him with a, with a machine gun and two guys would have ganged up on with a knife and another guy would have tried to poison him eventually. Just not just not. Then I, I don't think so. I think he was just losing his marbles, man.
0:24:25: Like the what, what's the Nirvana lyric? Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you.
0:24:31: Yeah, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
0:24:34: But I'm sure I, we, we bungled that line a little bit but it's cool. The uh yeah, and that glass of wine man, that was, that was so full that I was I would have had, uh, I had my suspicions about it too. It's like who fills a glass of wine to the, that high? I might, well, uh, actually I, I can't drink wine. I, I will have a massive headache before I finish the wine. So, uh, I live in Japan. I can't really handle any, you know. So, um, it's, yeah, I don't know. There's like, it's like a alcohol is great but only one kind.
0:25:10: Yeah, we got, we got pretty, uh, pretty lit up on Saki not too long ago and, uh, uh, just on a night out with the boys.
0:25:20: Yeah. See, I'll have massive regrets if I do that. So, yeah, I seem to remember that.
0:25:25: You see.
0:25:26: Yeah.
0:25:26: Ok. The massive regrets. That's cool. Yeah.
0:25:30: But, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One part death in your cocktail, I guess that's the alcoholic part of it. So, that's why I, that's why I like to think at least, um, low light mirror gazing. Ever try that.
0:25:42: No, that's, uh, you kind of, um, you know, it's kind of like a meditation technique but uh, low light. So not completely dark but not too light and you kind of stare at your face and it kind of morphs into other stuff. So I was thinking it's not that hard to see things that aren't there in a mirror.
0:25:59: I'm gonna go do that tonight.
0:26:01: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just, yeah. Kind of like a, I mean, it doesn't have to be a candle. Um, you know, I, I, I would use maybe this little lamp next to me. But, yeah, yeah, you kind of do that for it. It, it can get creepy. It's kind of intense. So, uh, it's, yeah, I have a feeling like if I tried to do this with my wife, like, after like, five minutes she would be like, crying to get out of the room.
0:26:21: Right. Right. But you see, she gets scared and freaked out pretty easily.
0:26:26: Now, I, when I've done that I don't see people behind me, but I'm also very close to the wall. So there, it would be impossible for someone to be there anyway.
0:26:35: But I just, I just love, like we did the shelter a few weeks where there's clearly nothing actually supernatural in the episode at all.
0:26:44: Like, right. Like, is it really the twi, I mean, it's really more an Alpha Hitchcock presents in that sort of case? Right. Uh, this one, I mean, it doesn't necessarily have anything supernatural but it's at least presented that way. So, um, you know, it could be a psychotic break or, or a supernatural mirror. So, yeah, like, is it even presented that way?
0:27:06: Well, just the, the previous dictator, just like you're gonna, that's how it works, right. And present present unless he was just a match. Master of, uh, um, psychological gamesmanship. Yeah. Or mind games. You can call it that too unless he was just a master of that. Um, yeah, apparently, uh, he may have used it, he might have been able to use it more effectively. Sort of like the, the tantalus device that the, the mirror Captain Kirk had, uh, might have been, might, might have kept, uh, his would be assassins at bay.
0:27:39: Um, however, uh, um, the new guy wasn't able to, to master it quickly enough.
0:27:49: I was trying to work out his logic, which I guess also works for, for your mirror universe logic, which is your friends must be enemies because your friends are assassins but you have no friends.
0:28:00: Yeah. He said you killed your friends. He was like, they were assassins and if they're assassins they cannot be friends.
0:28:06: Yeah. So now he has no friends. So, yeah, it was either an assassin or a would-be assassin.
0:28:15: Um, I don't know if you've ever gone down the, the rabbit hole of bad album covers.
0:28:21: Mhm. Like the worst. But one you'll, you'll re, uh, often come across is, it's pretty gay or pretty gauge or something. And it's, it's has this guy who looks about 30 years old, maybe twenties or something, like knelt down at a gravestone. And the name of the album is like all of my friends are dead. I, I think it's like, kind of a, um, not a motivational album about the dangers of drugs. Uh, motivational, seems like the wrong word. Cautionary, cautionary tale. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. But, uh, you know, that's, that's this guy, right?
0:28:53: Yeah.
0:28:55: No, it, it definitely is. And I, I liked the, the character of, uh, Father Tomas coming in, um, sort of pleading with him for, you know, for reason for mercy to turn the page to not be the new boss, same as the old boss.
0:29:12: And, um, and just, but sadly, I think his talk, uh, put, um, you know, put, put Clemente.
0:29:28: Um, I was, I was always gonna say, uh, um, yeah, put Clemente over the edge and I don't think it definitely, definitely meant to at all.
0:29:39: Um, I think he was like, literally just trying to help and show him that.
0:29:44: I think the one thing he could have done differently though was he said to him, all dictators have the same ultimate assassin and nobody recognizes it until it's too late. No, nobody recognizes them until it's too late, meaning themselves. And I thought, just say one more line, like, don't let it be too late for you, you know, unless he was playing his own mind game. Yeah, exactly. So, so he might have been, you know, playing mind games too because I kind of thought that the last thing was like, don't, you know, don't let it be too late for you. Like, yes, you're a killer. Don't be a killer today and, you know, maybe the cycle could have gotten broken. Um, but sadly, it was not, it ended with a self inflicted gunshot wound.
0:30:31: Um I've ever seen, yeah, nicest nice throw of the, uh, of the pistol um, by Clemente into the mirror though. That was, uh, I mean, if that was me, I'd probably need, uh, I'd probably need a couple of takes and the director would be like, dude, just throw the pistol at the mirror and break it.
0:30:50: It's the third time we've had to dre you know, bring in new drywall to repair your, your misses. So basically the whose entire career is based on this episode? Same as the new boss. Go to the mirror. Boy, smash the mirror. I didn't think of that one but, but yeah, same as the same as the old boss was definitely I was gonna mention then and now we're smashing the mirror. So now we're in Tommy Land. I'm like, OK, I got, I got, I can't get out of this without bringing up the who they would grow notable facial hair in the seventies. Of course. So, well, if you've gone out, we certainly would.
0:31:24: Yeah, I guess John and Whistle grew it, grew it for all of them and had it for a while.
0:31:30: Yeah. And John was and Whistle probably looks like he could have, could have been cast in this episode. He looks, he looks about as Central American as the rest of the guys do, except he'd have to be standing there like also with that like Gibson uh the Thunderbird or Firebird bass, whatever it is, he, he's got to have that in his hand too. So, yeah. And if he didn't have it, nobody would know who he was. So, just give him a, give him an army hat spray a, a little bit, a little bit of spray, sweat and boom.
0:31:57: And the base, they let him keep the base. Come on. He looks cool with that.
0:32:01: A cool looking instrument. Yeah.
0:32:04: Um, I have a look through. Oh, yeah, he's like, no one's like entertained by all of my executions. Uh So one is if you think a apathy is a problem now, you know, wait for the 24 hour news cycle. I'm like, well, if you really want your, your execution sizzle do him like Aztec style or something. You know, you could do that or, you know, the guy was, you know, the guy was very predictable. It was like, you know, I think he did a little bit of a countdown like Uno Uno Fuego. It's boring that go to the pyramid, rip out some hearts, toss them down the other side.
0:32:42: Yeah.
0:32:43: You know, or you could just bring in like, um, you know, your pro wrestler type be like, let's get ready to execute.
0:32:51: There's something, there's a way to light, a light show. You can have like a light and sound show.
0:32:54: Um, but I think probably the best rule would be no executions, you know, kind of stay away from that.
0:33:01: Uh, yeah. Yeah. Good, good to avoid. But, and if you're going to do at least have like a, a sharp, you know, pr person to, uh, finesse it for you. So, people aren't bored by your executions here.
0:33:12: If they're not bored, they should, maybe they should at least be, uh, because I guess the idea is to frighten people. Right. Like this is what would happen to you if you go against me.
0:33:23: Right. Is that the idea or was it just strictly revenge on, on the old, uh on the old administration kind of power? Absolute power.
0:33:32: Absolutely sort of vibes. Right.
0:33:34: Yeah, definitely. Um You know, the, the, the tail in, in itself though is pretty impressive. I mean, a year, one short year from being a uh a disgruntled worker of the dirt.
0:33:50: Um There's a title for you.
0:33:53: That's the narrative for Castro though. If you, you know, if you want to get into the weird ins and outs and spy stuff, there, there is a suggestion that he might have been a somewhat groomed, you know, person, just kind of like how they like, was it? Lenin was kind of a discreetly shipped in by rail during World war one, which is kind of weird. He was in like Germany or something or France or?
0:34:17: Yeah, he's like, kind of sent into the uh into Russia to, to screw things up a bit and which he did quite successfully.
0:34:24: But Fidel Castro's like origin story is one year from zero to hero, from worker of the dirt to occupant of the palace. It's pretty, yeah, it was a pretty quick, um, rise also. They were, you know, out in the, I guess it's a jungle in Cuba. Um, you know, really, really stuck in the, in nasty jungles for a lot of that time and, you know, once, you know, it's kind of like once you get to the tipping point, things tip and now you're sitting in the palace a week earlier, you're out in the woods, right? Where the, the jungle. So, yeah, that's uh that's, and, and I, I also came across somewhere or was under the impression that um at, at one point, Fidel Castro Castro at all did come to the United States and say, like, look, this is a dictatorship.
0:35:13: We'd like uh a democracy. Uh We'd like your help in setting that up and the answer was no, no, we don't get involved. We uh well, yeah, I mean, there, there was such a, a kick in the crotch to, you know, um corporate America because they had put a lot of money into, into Cuba. I mean, they had, you know, like, you know, all the, all the clubs, hotels, uh industrial concerns. Uh it, it really burned the, the, the corporate sector when that happened because they had lost all instantly. Right? So, yeah, so they, they were, you know, holding a bit of a grudge of their own. So, I guess, yeah, that's, that's unfortunate. Yeah, I guess I'll start asking the questions I ask in these episodes. Uh, the first one being who in this episode enters or it goes through the Twilight zone.
0:36:03: Well, like you said before, it's, um, it's, it, it, if, if at all, and like you said, it was presented and I guess I'll, I guess I'll take it at, at face value that this mirror did have.
0:36:16: If we can believe the, the um uh deposit, that's not the right word. What do you do with the, what do you do with the dictator depose the deposed dictator? If we can believe, then this, this mirror did have some uh twilight zone qualities. So I would say that uh, and I, I, I have been biting my tongue. I've been trying to say I've been trying not to say Roberto Clemente this whole time. But uh Ramos Clemente, I think uh Ramos Clemente went to the Twilight Zone.
0:36:45: Yeah. Yeah, he'd be a strong contender.
0:36:48: Um, the previous dictator at least has a little bit of a twilight zone knowledge just being able to play that mind game so well, like he's, he, he kind of has an air of like, even though I'm about to be horribly executed, I know what I'm doing.
0:37:02: Yeah.
0:37:03: Yes. You'd have a sort of a knowledge and maybe a, maybe a mastery of it. And so far as being able to use that tool of the Twilight zone without going into the twilight zone themselves.
0:37:18: His, his, um, the revolutionary cabinet, I guess, are just like victims of the twilight zone. In this case. They don't really, well, they experience their, um, their leader and I, and I guess their friend just like losing it suddenly that can happen anywhere.
0:37:32: Yeah. Yeah. You never know when your friend is gonna go psychotic and, and, and kill all of you. That's just a Tuesday.
0:37:40: So they're, they're kind of, yeah, adjacent. But, yeah, and this, this is definitely a morality play sort of episode. I mean, some aren't, some are more ambiguous but when it's a morality play and it's like, do they deserve it? It's like, well, it's a morality play. But, but if you'd like to add anything to that. Um, yeah. No, I think, I think it definitely was.
0:38:03: Yeah, I think it definitely was, you know, what I saw was an exploration of, um, like knowing yourself and knowing what, what your goals are because it's easy or I think to, um, sometimes, you know, map out that course of action and achieve an objective and if you haven't planned properly then you don't know what comes after that.
0:38:33: And, you know, one example that just comes to mind is, you know, scaling mount Everest, right? It's not enough just to get to the top of the mountain.
0:38:40: You've got to know how you're gonna get back down and, and lots of people have, have died on the way back down.
0:38:49: And because they didn't have that, they just thought about how they're going to achieve their objective, but not what comes after that.
0:38:54: And I kind of see that here where Clemente knew he wanted to seize power, but to what end, you know, was it to create a more fair uh environment for people to, to get to, you know, live their lives, you know, uh be granted the rewards of their own, their own efforts and their whole, their own hard work, you know, be able to save and live and, you know, be happy and, you know, provide for their families or they just does, he just want these people now to serve him and he doesn't have to work the dirt anymore. Like what is the ultimate plan? And if you don't have one, then you'll just sort of fall into a vacuum.
0:39:44: And I think that vacuum was kind of what he saw in the, uh, in the mirror, um, sort of bolstered by his own paranoia and probably, I mean, let's face it. I mean, in that last year, I mean, I'm sure he killed a lot of people. He saw a lot of assassinations, I'm sure he saw a lot of backstabbing, probably compromised his principles a lot. Um, over the course of that year to achieve this objective. Um, I mean, that's all a recipe for, for trauma.
0:40:15: Yeah. I, I was thinking like a year earlier he might have had, like, you know, he probably had the revolutionary rhetoric. Like, the people have the power, everything will be spread equally and none of those statements mean anything if you don't have the details. Right.
0:40:28: Right. I, I, I loved recently how, um, this is not just them, it's probably a lot of things but they have, there's a specific flavor of this. I'm gonna bring up, like, uh, you know, Disney copy, like, on their websites for cruises or theme parks and it's all just, and, and, you know, d 23 announcements. So, I was like, you know, ah, Disney has the magic of the power of dreams and the dreams will recreate your stories, which will be magical. It's like, that doesn't mean anything you're just saying dreams, magics and stories a lot. That's, doesn't make sense.
0:41:03: I mean, I should find it like a specific example but, I mean, it's just like, hey, we got to fill a paragraph here. People are gonna look at like, the, uh, pictures of our nice new cruise ship, you know, and maybe they'll read this and it needs to, like, at least not turn them off on the cruise ship. I guess so.
0:41:17: Yeah.
0:41:18: Um, but, you know, without that commitment to do things, you know, differently going forward, it's just kind of that cycle that's gonna repeat and there is, you know, I had a, a professor when I was in grad school. He actually sat on the board that, that reviewed my graduate project and he's, I'll never forget this.
0:41:40: He said you could have the most altruistic goal in the history of humanity. Like maybe you want to save, you know, the white eared pigeon like that is they're endangered and you're, you want to make your life's mission to save these animals. So you form the White Eared Pigeon Preservation Society and, and now you're the president of the White Eared Pigeon Preservation Society.
0:42:05: And as soon as that society, and as soon as that office exists, your goal changes from saving the white eared pigeons to self preservation because if you're not in charge, you can't do any of the work that's, you know, gonna be required to save these folks. And I think that's what we saw. Maybe he was, uh, you know, had, had lost your goals a year ago, but seeing what he's seen over the course of the last year, he either thinks or he knows that there's an assassination or an assassin around every corner because he's just been that he's been doing that for the last year here, here's kind of a twilight zone adjacent sort of metaphor for that, I guess. Um, you know, they, they get, when staring in the mirrors, they do meditation stuff and, and for a while I was like, you're doing stuff to have like lucid dreams.
0:42:53: Right.
0:42:54: And it's cool if you have a lucid dream, it's awesome. But I actually found, I prefer vivid dreams because you have a lucid dream. And, like, ok, I'm in charge. And what, what now it's like, well, I, I, I'd rather let my subconscious throw a really interesting vivid dream at me. You know, it's like, yeah, that's gonna be more imaginative than the one I'm controlling.
0:43:14: Yeah, I think you're 100%. Right.
0:43:17: And that's where this guy is. Like, he, he's now in control and he, yeah, like, has no clue what to do about it. Right. So, um, all he knows is that everybody's, all he thinks is that everybody's coming after him, just like everybody was going after the last guy, I guess they, uh, you know, but of course the last guy was terrible too. Probably. So. Um, yeah, I mean, but Here's the, here's the weird twist of this episode simply because we're watching it in 2023 is now we know that this guy just kept going on for, what, 60 more years?
0:43:50: Yeah.
0:43:51: Like the Cuban. Oh, God, it's not Cuba. Yes, it is. Um, like, you know, that revolution technically was very successful because it, it still has not completely ended.
0:44:02: Well, I mean, the, the rain has been successful. I don't know.
0:44:09: Yeah, I don't know what I mean. It looks to me a lot again knowing nothing that, you know, Cuba is kind of stuck in the fifties.
0:44:17: You know, there's, there's not real manufacturing down there. There's not real economic growth. I don't know whether the people are happy and, and, and healthy and provided for. I, I don't know, it just sort of seems like it's a place that's, that's stuck in time, um, trying to keep the same cars running for the last 70 years. And I have a, I, I had a student about 10 years ago who, uh it was Japanese so he, he, he doesn't have like the American embargo and he was a pretty serious baseball player. I went to several like baseball trips to Cuba.
0:44:51: So, and, and he was like, yeah, it's kind of, there's little problems with, sometimes with supplies and stuff like that. But uh you know, obviously on feet on the ground you're, you know, people after 60 years, people are living their lives, right. Uh Definitely some flaws in the system, you know, but everyone's everywhere.
0:45:08: I mean, there's to certain degrees how many flaws in the system you have. So, um it is, I mean, if you choose Cuba or North Korea, Cuba is looking a little better than that. So, yeah, I would say so, food is better. Korean food is pretty good. But, and you know, and I've got friends with dual citizenship. They go there on the regular and they say they love it.
0:45:27: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um I mean, honestly if it would be very charming to see a bunch of old cars on the street.
0:45:33: Oh, heck yeah. Yeah.
0:45:35: Although I'm sure they would love to, you know, get their hands on like a Honda fit as well. So, I bet.
0:45:42: Where would you like to place this episode on the triple meter zero? Being not trippy at all? Five being extremely trippy.
0:45:49: Oh, man. I think this might be.
0:45:52: Well, it's, and, and again, this, this is not, and I'll just say this, this is not a reflection on the episode, right? I think this is a very good episode of The Twilight Zone.
0:46:03: Um but I don't think it's a very trippy episode. I think it's probably somewhere around a, a 1.5 or so.
0:46:10: Um because because really, I'm, I'm kind of leaning with that score. I'm leaning into the fact that or not the fact, the opinion that this was all a manifestation, you know, inside um Clemente's head that it was not that that mirror did not have any kind of magical powers.
0:46:32: And uh because of that, I think it was a kind of a more standard um paranoia is gonna get you kind of kind of episode. See I'm going for a completely middle of the road 2.5 because like you said, what's going on inside his head is extremely trippy because he's uh losing it. Uh whereas what's going outside is uh brutally real with executions happening outside. So, yeah, to me, that's that's a, um, you know. Right, right in the center. So, yeah, they average, average each other out.
0:47:06: But, yeah, yeah, it seems to work out for me. Uh, did you have any final thoughts you wanted to throw out on the mirror?
0:47:16: Yeah, I guess. And I did, I had no idea that this would, that I would even stumble across this, you know, when we, when we sat down to record. But, um, just, just kind of that, that philosophy is that if you, if you have a goal to, if one has a goal to help people or to achieve something or to achieve a position of, of influence, um it's just as important to keep that dream alive, keep that dream alive when you uh when you achieve that goal and not just succumb to the the trappings of, of power and um position that you've, that you've uh achieved that, you know, remember what it's like to be that worker in the dirt, um worker of the dirt uh and to help other folks that, that are in the same position you were in then uh to, to have it a little bit easier to,
0:48:16: to move up to have opportunities and uh because it's really, really easy to just sort of abandon all those things under the guise of, OK, I've got to take care of me because if I don't take care of me, then I won't be able to help anybody else and then all you're doing is taking care of yourself and you never help anybody else. So that's, that's sort of my, uh, my takeaway and something that, you know, is, is gonna give, uh, me a little bit of, of refocus on things. Um, you know, just, just kind of going forward.
0:48:49: Yeah. Poli, politically. It's like, kind of the, the, you know, the catch 22 of, of civilization that the people who want power are probably not the people who are going to be able to wield power. Well, right, I mean, that's got all the way back to, to Plato who's, you know, put the smart people in charge maybe, but we're still not really there so he could be wrong. I don't know, maybe a plutocracy is just a dictatorship. So, I mean, we'll see, hopefully, hopefully we'll figure it out. Right. There's, you know, there's folks that think there's a fight between two different sides and I think the struggle is to find the right balance and in order to find the right balance, the, the two quote unquote sides have to have to keep talking to each other and, and comparing ideas and, you know, let the best ideas.
0:49:38: Um let the best ideas uh take over.
0:49:43: Yeah.
0:49:43: Um I guess we'll wrap up today. So, uh I, I, I know with the Oroville you're not like firing on full cylinders, but when you do fire your cylinders, they're pretty notable these days.
0:49:55: Uh the in between interviews. Uh, yeah, we had a, we had a really a good one, a couple of, uh two supplemental episodes ago with Brandon Braga.
0:50:05: Um, in fact, we, we chatted for about an hour and 45 minutes. So we split that into two and, uh, they're available, uh, uh Mission Log, the Orville. And then we just had a really, really nice conversation with Joel mcneally who is one of four musical composers on the show.
0:50:21: And, uh, and he sat down with us, talked about the release of the Orville New Horizons, uh, soundtrack, which is, which covers the season three episodes, uh, 78 songs, four plus hours of music. Um It's, it's a lot of fun. It really is very, uh, neat episode and we're gonna, um, as soon as, uh, my illustrious co-host, uh co-host, um, is, and I are able to, we are gonna sit down and chat about, uh, the comic books, uh, that we touched on when we interviewed David a Goodman.
0:50:58: Um, but we're gonna do the Mission Log treatment on, on each one of those as well and we're gonna do that while we're waiting for season four, which, uh, I think there's been some rumblings and I'm probably more confident now, uh, cautiously optimistic that there's gonna be, uh, that there will be a season four and more Mission Log. The Orval.
0:51:19: Yeah. Streaming World is so weird where, you know, it's like, oh, a lot of people really like this show.
0:51:24: Uh, a lot of people are watching the show but then the show just vanishes because of some weird business decision where, because everything, I guess it's kind of like, it's like the communist communism of, of popular entertainment. Right? Everything comes from the same pot now, more or less. Yeah. So, I, I look at that and I think, ok, so Hulu, I think had a need for the show.
0:51:45: But does Disney have a need for the show?
0:51:48: You know, with Disney have an MC U and Star Wars and, um, you know, and, and so much other content and now it's looking like Disney may back off its acquisition of, of Hulu and, and folding that in. So, I, I don't know. But, but you're exactly right. I don't think it has anything to do with the quality of the, of the show or the number of viewers.
0:52:09: It's, it's how much money is spent on it and, you know, does it drive subscriptions? I think it drives subscriptions.
0:52:17: Um, but if people aren't watching, um, you know, for that show where they watch for something similar, it's, and, and the couple of folks that I've spoken to or heard, speak about that produce shows for streaming. They have no idea.
0:52:36: They don't know if it's, if people like it or if people don't, they don't know if people are watching it or if they're not, they don't know if it's making money for the streamer or not. Like, all they know is at some point the streaming service will come to, it was come to them and say we want more and that's the only indication that they have. That's it.
0:52:56: Yeah. Yeah, I was just seeing it. I think it was a, um, an hands out Twitter Post yesterday. She's like, please stop, ask me when the next season comes out. I'm the last person who gets told this.
0:53:06: I know the exact case of the show. I'm the last person to get the news. Yeah. And we're all, we're all looking forward to, uh, season two of Strange New World. Um, and on Wednesday nights we've been doing a rewatch of each episode of the Orval. We're about halfway down to season two right now and listening. Uh, so, you know, kind of the idea is some people just show up to chat and that's great. Other people will rewatch the episode. Um, we just did last week, um, uh, a happier refrain and as of this recording and chatted about it, um, so some people watch the episode. I do and then kind of re listens to the podcast and we chat about it. We're working our way through, uh, seasons two and that, you know, we already did season one and we'll kind of finish up, uh, season three and hopefully that'll kind of kick the can down the road enough too.
0:53:58: Um, get us to a season four release date. And we're doing that on the, on the, uh, Roddenberry, uh, patrons, Discord, uh, account. So, if you want to go to Mission Log, excuse me, patreon dot com slash Mission Log, uh, you can sign up to be a patron and that'll give you access to the Discord and then you can chat with us on Wednesday nights about the Orville if that's something and we would love to have you there.
0:54:18: And actually we are there too time. Enough podcast. We do a biweekly Sunday night one where we talk about the last two episodes of uh the Twilight on the here on the podcast. Um to be really confusing on my own Patreon under podcast podcast where I will also do occasional chats with the Patreon. So there's like two varieties of chats, you know, maybe at one time that you combine, I was like, well, I have actual patrons so I just send them invites and let's, let's, you know, talk about it. So awesome. So I, you know, either, either way, uh you, you, we try to interface with our audience a little more. So that's, that's fun in a podcast. You podcast is we do other podcasts. Uh We talk about the weird side of Disney films and the Occult Disney Podcast.
0:55:05: Uh We're just wrapping up a run on the, on the sixties series the prisoner. So which will definitely screw with your mind. Uh Kind of twilight zone adjacent. And uh we're just starting a new one called films and filth in which we look at the top 100 the bottom 100 films as rated by I M DB users. Uh So, you know, the first run of films was, how is IKI followed by 2001 A space travesty, followed by, followed by ballistics X versus sever.
0:55:41: And then at that point, I think, uh Mike, uh, your, your schedule, we're gonna do, uh north by northwest. So, uh, you'll be on there relatively. I think you're, you might be the first guest on the show. So, right.
0:55:52: Uh, do get into that, uh, for video game listeners, here's is a game game show. There's Luke Loves Pokemon and there is a new podcast called, uh High Rule Field Report about the Zelda Games. So I, I believe that I don't know if I said High rule, right? High Rule. I, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not really a gamer. I'm, I'm not on the gaming podcast. I'm on the movie ones.
0:56:14: Sounded good to me.
0:56:16: Ok. So I'm gonna go, is it scree? Is that when you stare into the mirror? You're scree? I think that's maybe what they call it. There's some mystical dim light mirroring.
0:56:25: Ok. I'm gonna go dim light mirroring. Actually, I'm not because it's morning here. But, uh, yeah, maybe you are chill
0:57:31: fast.
0:57:52: Um Yeah, mean about you, open your mind.