0:00:03: It is the middle ground between light and shadow between science and superstition and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge.

0:00:14: This is Time Enough podcast.

0:00:40: Hello, welcome to Time Enough Podcast. It's where we talk about episodes of the Twilight Zone and beyond. As always, this is Matt here joining me today from, I know her from Mission Log, the Oroville. Although she does a few other different, I think you have a few separate podcasts. You don't know Nick. I know that one, but it's a birdie. Welcome back. Thank you so much for having me back. Yeah, if you don't know Nick, I'm a weekly host for sci fi five on the Roddenberry Channel. And then I have another podcast with my boyfriend, which is um podcast of the Rings. It's like insane that no one took that name for Lord of the Rings. So it's pretty good though. I think it's great. So we started by talking about episodes of the new Lord of the Rings Show from Amazon and now we're continuing going through other works. So how did that one play for you? I guess you're a Ring stand. Are you?

0:01:38: I am, I was, I grew up so like I grew up being a fan of, you know, um Star Wars and Star Trek and Dune and Lord of the Rings. So like the major titles, right? And I like the show a lot. I can see why people have problems with it. My boyfriend is one of those people that has, that has like issues with it, but I feel like the people that know those lower stories more intimately are the ones that aren't going to like it as much because they, they can see where it deviates too much from text and then other people that I know that aren't as into Lord of the Rings, but like it, but don't know all these background stories that Jr created. They're just like, this is great. I love this. And so there's a little bit of what that tells me is kind of just let go, a little bit of what your expectations are and just go along for the ride and you're more than likely going to enjoy it. I think that's, that's a fandom. I still haven't cracked. I've got the extended blu rays right on my shelf here.

0:02:41: But like half of it, why do you have it? Because it was like 12 bucks on a Black Friday sale several years ago. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna get to it. I have a sci fi podcast and, you know, sci fi fantasy. We're going to have to do them eventually and I'll give them their full proper view. But, yeah, and I think that's fine and again, you don't have to love everything. If I only spend my time watching Dune, I'd still be a normal person, But I didn't, I really loved it. But then dating this guy got me more into it, you know. So it'll be there waiting for you and you'll like it.

0:03:16: Movies are so good except for the hobbits were bad. We got off on the wrong foot with us back in 2001 when fellowship came out, my dad and I went to the theater to see fellowship.

0:03:28: I think we had like two martinis coming into the movie. We're just saying they're grumbling to each other.

0:03:34: Just guys staring at each other for three hours. That's too long. Yeah, that's probably, I think if you had gone in high it might have been a little bit better. But you also might have fallen asleep. You know, I fell asleep during one of the Phantom menace or something like that. I think I fell asleep. I fell asleep in the first hobbit and I never watched the 2nd and 3rd. So I think, I think I fell asleep in the cave. But that makes sense. You're in a cave. You take a nap. Makes sense today. I guess I should change gears. Oh, yeah. It was after work as well.

0:04:09: That's what happens when you fall asleep in the twilight zone.

0:04:14: Oh, wow, that master segue there. Okay.

0:04:18: We're talking about shadow play today, which is the more disturbing end of the world of dreams, I suppose. Let me knock out just a bit of trivia on this.

0:04:29: Uh the original air date was May 5th, 1961. The script is by Charles Beaumont dripping with his trademark existential dread and it may or may not be based on one of his short stories called Troll Mary. Um He did take dialogue and stuff from that story and put in the script. So at least it was informed by it, but you can steal from yourself. That's fine.

0:04:55: I think John Williams does all the time. Oh, well. And then from Wagner to Yeah, exactly. Not to crap on John Williams, of course, master composer, but no one's crapping on him. But like I was watching home alone because it was just the, you know, the holiday season just passed and it's basically hogwarts. It's like just listen to it side by side. It's the same exact soundtrack.

0:05:18: No, I, I play in orchestras and actually because of pandemic for the past like three years, we've been practicing the same music and uh so we keep playing um Dvorak's New World Symphony and the third one, third movement is just like the Phantom Menace song that whatever the duel of the fates or whatever. It's, it's a little difference, obviously, not the same. But Andrew Lloyd Webber stole like Bolero for memory from cats. Like, and he even went to his father's like, is this Bolero? And his father said it is a million dollars. It sounds like a million dollars. So just, I mean, you can't help but be informed as artists. So if you steal from yourself, there are worse crimes.

0:06:01: I found sometimes the best thing to do is consciously steal something and then everyone thinks that you're doing something else. So that's actually great advice for T T RPG players or people that play D and D, if you're like the DM, you try to imitate somebody or like, like I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a Tom Hanks impression or Christopher Walken impression. You may not be good at that impression, but you're still doing something different. So you've created your own character that way a little bit totally. So more, more trivia, throw it my way. Oh, yes, yes. German director John Bram is back in the chair and I'd be remiss not to speak out credits such as 1942 the undying monster or 1954 is the mad Magician. I just love the titles. Yeah. Very good.

0:06:48: Dennis Weaver plays Doomed D A Adam Grant. He was Marshal Matt Dillon's Deputy Chester. Good on Gunsmoke and took on the starring role of the TV series mccloud. He also showed up in Steven Spielberg's first TV movie Duel, which I don't know if I think John Williams jumped on the next movie with Spielberg. So Sugarloaf Express or something, I think. Yeah.

0:07:12: Dream D A Henry Ritchie was played by Harry Townes. He showed up in many a sci fi guest spot doing some old West duties on Bonanza and again, Gunsmoke. He also has some sci fi credits appearing in Star Treks. The return of the are Cons and as the Guardian and Buck Rogers in the 25th century.

0:07:32: Finally, plucky newsman, Paul Carr Carson was played by right King. His main claim to fame was a starring role on Wanted Dead or Alive. Whose promos often cap off these twilight zone episodes, especially in the Blue Race where they leave the promos and at the end. So you see a lot of promos for that show synergy, I guess. Yeah, sure.

0:07:53: That sounds, I mean, or, you know, small acting. Cool, a little bit of that as well, for sure.

0:08:00: Um Jessica, if you could take a moment and prologue us. Oh, sure, sure. I know this is why you keep on asking me back.

0:08:08: Oh, did I do the Christopher walking before? I feel like I did. Okay.

0:08:12: No, no.

0:08:15: Adam Grant, a nondescript kind of man found guilty of murder and sentenced to the electric chair like every other the criminal caught in the wheels of justice. He's scared right down to the marrow of his bones. I don't know who that is, but it is in prison that scares him the long silent nights of waiting, the slow walk to the little room or even death itself.

0:08:40: It's something else that holds Adam Grant in the hot sweaty grip of fear.

0:08:44: Something worse than any punishment. This world has to, has to offer something only found in the twilight zone.

0:08:53: Yeah. I think you're like, kind of like, I was not sure if you want to do Sterling or go with that walking. So it was both again, great character work from Jessica Lynn Birdie over here. I mean, a prime Christopher Walken would probably be a pretty good twilight zone narrator. So you probably, actually that's a really great point. I feel like he's a little old to pull it off now because now he just has that, you know, the weight of ages, I think you have to have someone.

0:09:22: Yeah, you gotta have someone a little younger and slicker to, to be giving you your twilight zone interest. You're totally right. And I was watching, I was noticed, I was like, looking at how Rod Serling speaks because it's very, it's so distinct. Right? And I was watching him do this monologue or, you know, prologue and his mouth, he's like smiling almost like he's gonna get, you know, okay. And this guy, like, he's like, it's all in front of his mouth and he's sort of smirking. It's a very odd delivery. Well, part of it is he was not the guy that decided to do these, he was not comfortable on camera. Uh, the reason, the reason he's holding the cigarette is partly as a nervous clutch crutch.

0:10:04: Yeah. Yeah, kind of. So, um, yeah, he was just like that, like, chilled him out to be on screen, especially by season three. I think he was actually teaching writing classes out on the east coast, like a, closer to his actual home. So he just pop out every few weeks. Film, like eight of these things go back home.

0:10:26: I think at this point is a little more boots on the ground. Yeah. Strike, especially the third season, you can tell because he's actually in that scene. You know what I mean?

0:10:37: Right. Right on set. Sterling is always a bit of a treat. So, 2nd, 1st season you don't get him on set all, you just get his voice. Uh, second season is that sweet spot where he's still relatively, he's actively involved through the whole thing. But, you know, he has, he got distracted by other things later on because once you got the machine running, you don't really have to, uh, be at the wheel all the time. Right.

0:11:00: Right. Right. Yes. I think that's ideal.

0:11:04: I mean, that's how you drive yourself nuts, which I believe he was probably doing on the first season by working on it so hard, so well and everything you do, like, it's always a misnomer when people go into business for themselves or work on a show or work on a project. Like I just wanted to make me a lot of money and I would chill, like most people need to be involved in the baby making process until it starts chugging along without you. I guess that's the danger of being, having a personality. Um, so identified with your product. Like, it's like twilight zone. That's Rod Serling. I mean, hey, now he got Elon Musk doing, you know, five different brands and clearly going insane on the world stage. So. Right. Yeah, I mean, if you think about Kanye West to, he's completely synonymous with his, you know, talent, but also him losing his mind, his mind. He's just, he's just an unwell person. Um, yeah, I think, I think about that with Seth Macfarlane too because like, he's people, I have to ascribe his opinions with everything that they see on Family Guy and that just can't be true.

0:12:14: It's not possible. He's not writing for the show anymore. He hasn't been writing for the show in over 10 years and when we got to interview him for, um Mission Log, I was like, so what is your gripe against cats? He goes, what are you talking about? I was like every single episode. You guys are talking crap about cats and family guy. He goes, oh, that's someone else's right. Like, it's just not him, even though family guy is him.

0:12:37: Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's his brand. But like Matt Groening The Simpsons. I mean, was he ever that involved with the show? I can't, I can't imagine he wasn't. But, yeah, I'd be curious, like, obviously Futurama was his baby at a certain 0.2. And so he's focused on that. It's gonna be really interesting to know how much oversight comes in 20 years later, you know. Yeah, you just burn yourself out, you gotta put other people on the, on the driver's seat, which could be, could be what Adam Grant needs stuck in this dream. Have you ever seen? There's a couple of different episodes of Black Mirror that this Arkan's back to. Have you, do you watch Black Mirror? Uh It's part of my and beyond at the beginning of this, I definitely wanted it to it. Uh so far, I've only seen the, what is it? The Alistair, the Star Trek, the one that was so good. Yeah, when I saw that because that was before discovery come out. So there was like nothing along those lines on television. So I like pinpointed.

0:13:38: That was like, I have to go watch that and I really liked it. I need to watch more Black Mirror. But uh it's, it's on the list of, you know, this podcast will get to it for sure. Well, it makes sense because it's, it's just the updated twilight zone essentially. But the setting is our not so distant future. Should certain technologies continue? Right. That one's very technologically minded. Right.

0:14:01: Yes. But the moral conundrums still exist and I guess the issue and I wonder if this is true and maybe, you know, better than I do because I really am only watching episodes of Toilet Zone because you asked me onto the show. Um, but the Black Mirror sort, sort of ends up oppression because a lot of the episodes, it had sort of turns into reality. Sadly. But that's kind of the point. Are there like twilight zone episodes that people go, oh, look that happened or this weird thing that people were afraid of could happen was pointed to in a twilight episode. First, we were just talking a few weeks ago. Um I, I guess it was static. Yeah, we were talking, I was talking to John Champion for that and on static, we uh had the idea because it's, this guy is able to access radio from 20 years ago and it's like bizarre and mystical and he's hearing Tommy Dorsey and speeches from FDR all of a sudden and everyone else is like, hypnotized by the television.

0:15:04: But it's, it's sixties programming. So you watch what's on and we're like, wow, that we can't quite understand this anymore because our technology, the way we take in the media has changed so much like this seems absurd flashback to something that you can't hear again right now. I mean, I can play Tommy Dorsey on my ipad right now and nobody thinks that's weird. You know. Right. Right. That's actually, yeah. So it's more like what they thought we could and couldn't do versus today. Like, what would be strange? Right. And that's one thing on shadow play where, because you were mentioning Black Mirror maybe has similar things. And I wasn't like, oh, technology, that's stupid. But I was saying this one is clearly not technology. This one is mystically weird.

0:15:51: It's so mystically weird to the point where I just want the answer so badly. Like, why is this happening to him?

0:16:02: I had a different impression. I had a different impression um doing it a couple of times. The first time I saw it, I assume they simply has the stream every night wakes up and does this thing and goes back to sleep and has the stream again where he's watching it last night. I was like, wait a minute, he's just stuck in a loop. He's not even waking up. Is he?

0:16:23: How did you see it? Yeah, that's, I, so I took into consideration the monologue that this is a weird form of punishment for him. Someone's punishing him worse than just, you know, the death sentence. And that's actually kind of what made me think about it in terms of Black Mirror because there's a couple of episodes where there was a, you know, like, so actually looking at that ouster episode where you could just take the D N A from somebody and you can totally replicate them in a digital world. And so like when the guy's kid is throwing out the airlock, that kid is feeling that over and over again. So that was part of the torture of that episode, the Star Trek episode.

0:17:09: Um So take that same concept of being able to take someone's D N A and make them relive over and over again in the digital world, people were doing that with convicted murderers and you were like, you could press the button and electrocute somebody over and over again. So yes, it wasn't the person that was a new, initially killed, but it is there. We're supposed to believe their consciousness is experiencing it over and over again. So that's kind of what Adam Grant seems to be experiencing. There's another episode to where this woman's mind is being erased over and over again so that she could relive the whole town torturing her because she committed a similar crime.

0:17:48: But then they just wipe her brain or a memory and they do it to her all over again. The next day, I'm totally spoiling everything for you a little bit.

0:17:56: Yeah, exactly. You'll totally forget it. This is why, which is why I'm going into depth. But so my impression is, well, now it's completely different. My impression initially was that he was being punished that this was like some otherworldly torture for his convictions. But immediately, immediately, I thought this guy was not guilty. That's what's really strange is like, but in the sixties television, if someone is convicted of a crime, they're guilty. Right. We didn't really deal a lot with whether someone, it wasn't until 12 angry men brought that potential up. Like, this is not the person maybe not guilty of a crime, which would have been fresh in the public consciousness when this episode aired. So that could have been on the mind.

0:18:40: Oh, that's, yeah, I was curious about that too. Um, because I didn't know the timeline exactly as to one of those two things existed, but it definitely gave me that 12 angry men vibe. And that's why I thought initially he wasn't talking. Like, because if, if, if the defendant isn't talking, that gives us an opportunity for us to go well, well, is he guilty or is he not guilty?

0:19:02: But now I'm wondering if he's, if he's putting, if, if the priest was a preacher he grew up with as a kid, if the newsman was the kid, the priest that replaced that guy. Um If these are all things that if he's actually warping the world, what if this is his fever dream that's happening right before he actually is I RL electrocuted?

0:19:27: Okay. Maybe before our eyes takes. Actually, it's interesting because my, my take, that's why I was like, is it a loop he's having or is he like waking up, going back to work every day, going back to sleep? I see this episode is where maybe he realizes he let an innocent man die as a D A. And this is, this is himself punishing himself. This is his subconscious giving it to him. You know, like um some of the metaphysical minds are like, there is no heaven or hell except for your mind creating it. So he's making his own hell in a certain sense of the word he wants to be here because of his guilt.

0:20:06: Sure. Sure.

0:20:08: Yeah. I think when I just saying, I basically my impression even from the first viewing was he's doing this to himself, but on a subconscious level, but it's so he's so tortured, right?

0:20:23: Like, I think, I think what's even more frustrating as to whether he's doing it to himself or not, it seems like he just barely gets people to agree with him, just barely is about to escape the loop, right? So, like something about the fact that he couldn't convince the D A to stay the execution until a minute after he died, like, I don't know that he'll ever get out of that loop either. Like, it's, you know, like how in a dream where you go to like, punch somebody or go to run and you physically can't because you're in a dream, like everything he wants, he's just basically struggling. I think that the thing that really trips me up about this episode is I really just want to know why he's going through it, what's causing him to go through it and like, he's trying to figure out every time this happens, what it's like the war of tomorrow or what's that Tom Cruise? Emily Blunt movie.

0:21:21: There's like eight different titles for that. But my favorite is All You Need is Kill. And that's what my Japanese Blue Ray says that to all you need is Kill. That's the name of the original novel slash manga.

0:21:34: So in Japan it kept that name, but I guess that was considered to be too aggressive in the States. So what it was edge of tomorrow then it was a repeat.

0:21:43: Yes. Yes. But so like how Tom Cruise remembers everything from each time he's died. This guy is remembering it and kind of having to go okay. What, what sequence of events do I need to accomplish in order to not make this continue to happen?

0:22:00: I mean, I get, I've been stuck in, not stuck in dreams like this guy, obviously because I'm here talking to you. But I've had a few like just in the past week, like I'm trying to get across town, like I need to make it to a concert or a or work or something, you know, which is impossible. Move across town. I, I'm carrying too much stuff, that sort of thing. There's obstacles. I mean, you know, that's, that's, I guess the general kind of, yeah. Well, and now that you mention it um, I've talked about it several times because it's actually bothering me. I am in a loop in a lot of my recurring dreams. I did not know that I had so many recurring dreams, but it really came out more in the pandemic. How often? Well, maybe my recurring dreams started during the pandemic, but I dreamed that I am missing one class from graduating over and over again. And sometimes it's at my elementary school, sometimes at my, you know, high school or middle or like a version of all four schools I've ever attended. But I just can't make it to this one class.

0:23:01: And it's that and that reality stays the same in that dream world for me. And it's very frustrating because I just want to like, inject into my brain like, hey, you graduated, you don't need to take another class. Don't go back to high school. You're good. Like, I don't know what it is. My brain is trying to work And why for years now for at least 2-3 years, I've been dreaming some something very similar to that. I think I had, I had a similar one about 10 years out of university. Mine was like, I've been forgetting to go to the class for 2-3 months and now it's like exam time.

0:23:33: That's part of it. That was part of it. So like, so it's, it's like a varying different versions of each. Like there's just one class that I can't get to. And it's like, either I forgot to get to it or I haven't been studying or it's, for some reason, it's always on the one day I don't attend school, but, like, I'm not going to graduate if I don't do that and it still is 30 plus something year old Jessica trying to take that class. It's awful. Now, I have had, especially the high school version because I mean, you could be back in a secondary education, right. But in the high school version, I actually have gotten to the point where I have a dream like that at some point, like, wait a minute, I have a university degree. Why do I care about high school? That's a very helpful perspective. I think it had a completed college. I might be able to have a little more reality under my belt.

0:24:25: So, but maybe that's the thing with this guy's um dream loop. I guess I'm gonna go dark and say he's stuck in a dream loop. But, you know, eventually you might get it right. Every, every new iteration, all the roles get changed. You mentioned the priest was from his childhood. It seemed that that character had not been in his previous loop because he's like, kind of recognize you. But who are, you know, that the character had been? Because he's like, I still can't, can't place you, I can't place you. I've seen you a couple of times, but I can't figure out where you're from and then he finally placed, just hadn't worked it out yet. Okay. But the point is yet everyone's different roles. So, maybe once these archetypes are in the right place, you know, maybe he gets to the, once we shuffle the roles enough, maybe in the iteration, he suddenly finds he's the judge now and not be executed or the condemned and needs to figure out what to do. Interesting. I wonder, I wonder if it is just like a series of like, once everything's in its right place, the newsman actually is also a pastor or, you know, like it's one of the concepts I love about dreams is that are we actually in our own dream world or is there a dream plane where everyone is also actively dream?

0:25:43: And so like the people that we interact with, are there actual people or face like, like mashups of people we've met or are they actual humans that are also dreaming or is it like their subconscious that we're running into their part part of me that just likes to fantasize about that?

0:26:00: No, in my, my dreaming, I occasionally, most of the time when I run into people or characters in the dream, I, you know, I can tell there just dream characters, but every once in a while I do feel like I'm having a more depth, full conversation with something, you know, again, maybe I'm really good at talking to myself, that's for sure on the table. But what's actually strange is I, I speak Spanish lightly and it's mostly just conversational, but I took years of it in school and I speak excellent Spanish in my dream. Like, not like, oh, I think, I think I'm doing a good job. Like I know I'm actually speaking legitimate Spanish and I'm speaking it well and I think there's an element of it is because some part of my brain is getting tickled. And so it's like, hey, by the way, this is stored back here, you just don't actively use it. But there's just so many things we don't understand about the brain.

0:26:53: Yeah, this is maybe 10 years ago. It was before the Star Wars Sequels came out and I had this dream and I should mention my Japanese is still garbage unfortunately, but I had a dream where I was back in America and going to see the premiere of a new Star Wars movie. And I remember going to the concession concession stand which is supposed to be in America and trying to order in Japanese. And they're like, what are you doing? Yeah. So in the dream. So that was pretty, pretty entertaining. Um That's the thing. You can go ahead.

0:27:25: No, no, no, I was just saying, I mean, a lot of dreaming can be fun. This guy's just stuck in the worst version where nothing is fun.

0:27:34: Yeah.

0:27:37: And I guess that's what my question is gonna be like at a certain point. Do you, do you just give up? Like you just go? Ok, great. Here's this like it's kind of like Groundhog Day, right? Where we see this is basically the Groundhogs day version of the being executed and like we just we're seeing him in the middle of his like frantic stage with it where he's still trying to get out of it but like if it were me at a certain point, I just resign and be like this sucks. Alright, cool. Let's go. Let's like what else are you gonna do?

0:28:08: There's a um you were asking about similar twilight zone episodes and one of the really early ones is a judgment night where a German U boat commander is reliving like basically a passenger ship that he torpedoed except in in his loop, he's on the ship, he's no longer on the submarine. So um so that definitely is like his guilt. Well, I don't know it could be held to but you know it's compounding his guilty each time because he knows that the exact time the ship is going to go down. Uh he has the benefit that he can go hit the bar, I guess while he's waiting. But you know that that's that's kind of a similar vibe. But in that when we talk about that one was like, can can his loop develop which in shadow play there is change from one loop to the next loop. So you're talking about, he's frantic and I started thinking about kind of the, the, the eastern idea of, of chakras. You don't have to believe in it or anything like that. I'm just talking about the general pace of like someone becoming in light and starts at the base chakra.

0:29:10: It's red, it's, you know, that's all like, where do I get food? You know, sex, all the basest instincts are there. And the idea is the, the, the monk or the seeker or whatever moves up, you move up to where that's covered. You know, you're getting to your heart, caring for people. You're getting to your blue throat chakra, you're learning to speak properly and express yourself. Um you know, until you get to enlightenment, which would be this top head chakra, you know, you're moving up to or even like just needs in life. So this guy is stuck down at the bottom of red. He's frantic. He's just, I'm going to die. That's all there is. But like you said, could be groundhog day and start like we're like understanding the dream characters talking to them or things like that is the dream loop evolved in that way.

0:30:01: It certainly could because he's still so singularly focused on how this is affecting him. And the only way he was able to get them to pay attention this time around. And again, the time that we see because this also begs the question, why are we seeing this loop? Why is this the loop That we're seeing if he's gone through this 500 times? Let's say, why are we looking at this one with this DA, this newsperson, this priest? And that's curious to me, like, just probably worth thinking about like in a, in a fun thought exercise. But can he just slow down and go? Hey, what, what am I supposed to be learning here? Because he still is very selfish in this exact, in this situation. So maybe he is a murderer and he needs to learn how to not be so selfish over and over again.

0:30:53: Yeah. Yeah. That's why I wonder if he has d a guilt has murders guilt because he sent the wrong man to the chair again. I guess that's head can because they really don't say it in this episode. But yeah, it could be that it certainly could be that maybe like the people that are in the jail are.

0:31:11: So here's another, oh, I was going to say the thing that he's the thing that he says that is what he's experiencing. Like this version of being executed is what he's seen in movies because otherwise he really would have no recollection. He would have no idea of knowing how this works. But I was so I was gonna say that don't let them hurt me. Mommy guy could also be in his like insane like could be like the late stage version of Adam Grant. But I forgot that he, they explained that by saying that's how he would assume someone would be if they were on death row.

0:31:53: Yeah. Another thing you're mentioning death row and dream characters and everyone's really concerned that if and when Adam Grant wakes up, they all cease to exist, which I guess would be true if it's his dream. So.

0:32:08: Well, I think it's when he dies, they will stop existing in that iteration.

0:32:15: And that's why they're scared.

0:32:17: So.

0:32:18: Well, first of all, if you see a roast, after you know that your wife was making steak, you don't stay the execution, then like, like that should have been immediately like, well, this guys, something's going on here, let's stop. But then they still like, oh, well, I don't know, I don't know, they have been hung for too long. But so they said that when he says that when he's executed this, they will die. They, that this version of them living will die. And that's, that is what the D A is scared of, is losing this current version of his life.

0:32:53: Yeah, that and there's another bit of Eastern is um to bring in again. I don't know how much Charles Beaumont the writer was in or not into central tenets of Hinduism sort of thing. But there's the idea that everything is Maya, it's the illusion and it's, it's the Dreamers Dream and the universe ends when the dreamer awakes. Right? I mean, like what we're experiencing now there's a dreamer and if that dream of words just like, pop its eyes now, you know, we don't vanish in a, you know, what something, question, what if the D A is the guy he murdered because he can't quite place him. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Maybe cold alley, sort of, you know. Yeah, dark alley is what he's looking for. But that could be the case. Yeah, it could be. And that's like, what he's trying to do is get that guy to forgive him.

0:33:45: Yeah. Yeah. That could be the case. I mean, at this point he's, he's, I don't know, I guess he's going through those stages of grief in a certain way and, uh, I think I was trying to say the same thing by going through, like, the idea of shockers and stuff. But, yeah, the stage of the grief might be another concept that is clearly on the earlier stages.

0:34:07: He hasn't gotten anything totally right. He's not, he's not taking the lesson away from this, that he, that if there is any lesson to be learned, he's not, he's not close to learning it yet.

0:34:20: But, you know, he's getting what shock treatment every, at the end of every iteration. So, maybe, you know, that's like where it's like he has to go through it again. But in order to do that he has to get electrocuted. Again. Um, just to, as a little bit of luck, at least he's not having to deal with, like Green Mile problems. Uh, it seems to be a straight, straight up execution. Right. He's definitely that it's one and done for sure.

0:34:48: Yeah. So at least they, yeah, at least they do it efficiently in this, in this episode. Yeah. Poor guy.

0:34:57: I don't know. Would you, would you be as frantic as him if, like, if you were killed over and over again? But you were still alive?

0:35:09: I don't know. I'm actually trying to, sometimes I do write down my dreams and see if I can load that up, but, like, added a slash quote unquote nightmare. Uh, but it wasn't really, I was doing some kind of science research out like, like in the forest. Right? No, there's animals around and, uh, you know, I'm, I'm walking out and a wolf is, you know, following me or quote unquote, chasing me. Right.

0:35:34: And I'm like, what's it gonna do when it catches up? And it kind of catches up and stares at me for a moment. I was like, what now? And I guess I'm gonna bite your arm bomb. He was like, if you didn't hurt or anything that I'm like, oh, yeah, there's some holes in them and then it just kind of wandered off and I left the forest just like, oh, I guess we have to do this now. So let's go ahead. And do it and move along. Alright. Alright, let's just fulfill your duty and that's so interesting.

0:36:00: I really do love thinking about dreams. They're they're hard to explain to other people. So I try not to because my first instinct like my one of my best friends kids is just can't wait, he's like four and he can't wait to tell you about every dream he had last night and, and it's so sweet to him because it's so sweet to me that he wants to do that because it was such a stimulating experience for him that he wants other people to experience that. But he doesn't realize that if you weren't in that dream, it's really hard for people to understand.

0:36:30: But I'm, I feel similarly to him that my dreams experiences are so real feeling like my narratives are so long and drawn out that all I want is for people to like know what I went through. But it really is just for me because I'm sorting through some, some trauma or junk, you know, in the middle of the night. Basically, there have been like um indigenous or tribal cultures where actually it was pretty normal for the family to get together in the morning and discuss what they had dreamed the previous night, which seems like a pretty solid form of therapy. Didn't, what did they think it was doing?

0:37:07: Um Well, of course, you've got the in Australia, you've got the Aborigines which I should also know I could get list six different names for who they actually are because they are not the same people. But, you know, they have the dream time where that's kind of more like you said, where are these dreams taking place? They would say, oh, that's more real than this world. So we have to talk about what happened in time.

0:37:32: So I love that. I love, like having some reverence.

0:37:38: I mean, for me, I do, oh, oh, no, no, that's fine. You know, skittering pinball is a thought there, right. But no, I do discuss my dreams with a friend or two on a relatively regular basis even though they're bizarro or whatever. So I guess you're asking about reverence of dreams or something. I have a, At least for like, understanding how my brain's working or whatever and, and about four nights ago I woke up like, I think it was one of the moving across the city with lots of obstacles and waking up totally anxious for like 20 minutes. So, and that's something you kind of have to decompress from, to write. Like, okay, this is, yeah, normally there's like a recalibration moment for me after specifically after especially uh detailed dream.

0:38:29: Yeah. Yeah. Or just to experience and keeps going and, you know, you're worrying about something you've broken or lost and then you're like, wait a minute, I'm kind of in my room, aren't I okay? I don't really need to be so concerned about this, right? Like I have all my teeth, especially enough I can actually fall back to sleep in. So like in the morning, I'll wake up after like a really intense dream or whatever. And then that following night when I'm going to bed, I could actually fall asleep more quickly if I can recall parts of that dream and kind of drop back into that state of that dream.

0:39:03: Right? So in the, when I woke up anxious, like it was like 5 30 in the morning. So I did go back to sleep and kind of went back into that dream. But at that point, I already realized I missed that concert doesn't really matter anymore. So it was still hard to move around because it was the same dream environment, but it didn't really matter anymore. So maybe that's it, it's over. Oh, that's interesting, kind of like acceptance of loss. And now like now it's, it's almost like a very interesting version of lucid dreaming.

0:39:32: Yeah. Yeah. So that is maybe what Adam Grant needs to, you know, get he needs to get over this situation even if he has to keep walking to the situation. Well, I mean, like he's such a jerk to one of his fellow inmates when he's just playing the harmonica. So it's like, hey, just listen to him by the jerk like, and that guy was so nice about it like, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know it was bothering you. Like he could have been asking for, he could have been cruising for a bruising and he was just so mean to that guy. He could, what if the whole time was spent? Like, hey, just play, man. Let's just, let's go Coney.

0:40:10: Yeah, he needs to get to that groundhog day sort of acceptance, you know, late stage Bill Murray where he's like, whatever is fine. You know, granted he got a much better day to play with than this guy is. So that's 100% the case. But there's like that really dark period of the movie where he kills himself over and over again. I think that's where watching Shadow Play. I think we're in that stage 100% 1. Well, no, because there's more ennui in that right there is like, so this, he's still an anger. He's still like, I'm going to eat all of the, well, no, he's not even. Yeah. No, I think we're right before that.

0:40:52: When Bill Murray's in that stage, it's like an all is lost moment. Like, well, this is, it, nothing matters. Of course, he's a lot funnier because that's, you know, at least some, what is a comedy? But it is a comedy. It's a deep comedy.

0:41:07: Yes. Yes.

0:41:10: Um, I think a few more points might come out but I do want to get to my questions.

0:41:15: The first one is who in this episode is experiencing or going through the twilight zone coming? Um, I, I, I think, I think it's, I think, I think it's Adam, I think it's Adam now part of me wants to say it's the D A but the D A obviously shifts often.

0:41:40: Sorry. Um, like they're both the leads, like, is Adam Grant and the D A. But I think it's, I think it's Adam Grant, I think. Yeah, I feel like he's the only character and the only actual character here, right? Because it like, clearly these characters are echoes of his mind. They don't seem to be like sentient dream characters if that is not possible. Like it's just his subconscious studies looking at. So to me, he's the only character in this. That's a good point.

0:42:10: Yeah.

0:42:11: Um because you're mentioning the R D A because his waking job is the D A, right? So when he's sleeping, he's the condemned.

0:42:22: Well, that's your, that's your thought process. Okay? That's what you think. Right. Yeah. That's right. Right. Right. Right.

0:42:27: Hold on. I need to re look at Rod's prologue because I feel like he said that. But maybe he didn't, maybe I didn't know. I think he said that this is the wheels of justice. Okay.

0:42:38: Weird. Yeah. Now that I'm looking at the prologue again, now I'm like, why did I get that seared into my brain so much? I think I said earlier that, that just seemed to be what you thought it might be like you had, like you didn't say that that's what you just might be so convinced that that's the reality we're having to deal with dream logic here. That's the problem, isn't it?

0:42:57: Exactly.

0:42:58: Right. Okay. So, the more heavy hitter of a question, I guess is, um, does he deserve his trip into the twilight zone?

0:43:11: I think that's really hard to gauge if we don't know what the murder charge is, if this is something like he actually did. Um, I think you're supposed to assume that he's guilty, but I can't assume that not having any information.

0:43:31: I guess he deserves it as much as he thinks he deserves it that he's angry, but he doesn't necessarily seem undeserving like he's, he doesn't feel like it's unjust that he's dying. Like he thinks it's weird. It's happening so quickly because that's not how things work in real life. But no, he's just, he just wants to die. I think that's what it is. Like, it's like either, like let's end this. Like I don't want to do this again. Yeah, we definitely are not seeing the conundrum of him like I need to kill anybody. So why is this happening to me? Um But like I still am erring on the side of like, I don't know what this guy did.

0:44:10: I don't know what he did. I don't know who he killed. I don't know if it's true.

0:44:14: So it's really hard to see what he deserves it.

0:44:17: And then like, if you, if you take it a step further to what were, what you were talking about? Like if he's on the lower lowest version of his enlightenment path, does anyone deserve that? Just because he's unaware, like, um like does he deserve to have this traumatic experience over and over again? I think that that's how life works. Life will throw you the same lesson over and over again until you're ready to learn it. But it's very particularly traumatic lesson, right? Because it's like, does anyone deserve a dark night of the soul sort of situation? But once they're past it, they usually own it. They're like, yeah, I had that experience that made me who I am.

0:44:58: So like I have had a couple of like rock bottom moments in my life and there was one that I just kept on like running my head into over and over again because I was like, I'm gonna change the outcome. I'm gonna change the outcome even though I knew I couldn't. And even I'm like a few years with that past like where I stopped trying to change the outcome and just accepting that like let's say I failed that one life lesson. Um And I know everyone, everyone would say like you're gonna be so glad you went through this because you, you learned the lesson and you know what I am not glad I went through that. I wish I didn't, like, because the thing is, like, I knew what the lesson was. I didn't want to learn it and I told myself that I could change the outcome and I couldn't, and I didn't. And yes, like, my life is very, for the thing that I was trying to make happen 10 times better things that happened because that didn't work out.

0:45:54: But I really resent the fact that I had to go through that first. Honestly, that is one. Yeah, I, I guess you have some things on, uh, some film and stuff you've done where you can see your past work and with, you know, I do a lot of music. So that's kind of almost like a brain drone. All right, because I'm like, oh, 10 years ago, I was, I was much dumber. I didn't have these skills, but then I go back and play. I'm like, this is really good. Like those limitations didn't actually matter.

0:46:24: Honest to goodness, my limitations and art have made me, that's my cat have made me a better artist. And I was, I did music for a long time and I only knew four or five chords and I wrote killer songs because I didn't know what the heck I was doing. And when I would make a mistake on the guitar or something, I'd be like, oh, that's a cool sound. And the challenge of writing music got harder, the more I learned. So, like obviously you can, then that just means go learn more and get better, which I didn't want to go to. But you're like, some people do this with painting. They'll work with a limited canvas. They'll work with limited colors like, okay, just tell me which colors I could use. You could be inspired if you only have burnt umber and Raw Sienna. And that's it. And that's all those are the only two colors you can paint with.

0:47:13: So I do wonder if Adam Grant can, you know, maybe work within his limitations, being stuck in a dream and dying every night. I mean, there's got to be something you're gonna do with that, right? Because he's got, he's got the whole day before that, you know, for something that's, that's just, it's like, it's taken me this long in my life to recognize that. Yeah, crappy stuff happens. And granted, I'm not on death row. I understand that, which is not to say that, you know, this current, we shouldn't have execution in general, but that's not what this whole podcast is about. But I've gotten to a place where at some point, like I've accepted like today, this was this crappy thing happened. My whole day doesn't need to be crappy because of that. And I think that's where like my enlightenment is going toward is like, as opposed to experiencing emotional volatility, learning how to just approach, approach things even keeled in an even killed way and this guy obviously isn't very good at that.

0:48:16: Um Where do you want to put this episode on our triple meter?

0:48:23: Go ahead. Remind me. Yeah. Okay. 02555. I think it's trippy, man. I don't know what it's happening, why it's happening. It's upsetting.

0:48:34: It's gonna stick with me. I'm I really want to know what happened.

0:48:38: Yeah, I'm gonna go five because I find when I get on with the guest and it's like we had, we basically watched different episodes because of our own assumptions, right? And like, that's really fascinating. Like, whoa, you watched a different episode than I did almost even though we watched the same thing. And I, to me that's actually where the Twilight Zones that it's trippy best. Um, you know, there's other kinds of things that does. Well, you were on the Monsters are due on Maple Street and that one very different. But this one, yeah, people see the same episode when they watch this one but Shadow Play or something like that. It's like we kind of watched different episodes as well. You saw that in it and you saw that and that's, that's crazy. That's so, that's, that's trippy that you have a, a frozen piece of media that can be completely viewed in different ways. That's the beauty of storytelling and why it's so important to us as humans and why it's the longest medium, longest existing medium of how we share stories and experiences and, and good ones will transcend that era.

0:49:42: And this is another episode we're sitting here and talking about it for, for the past 15 minutes or so. I'm like, wow, I kind of like it better now, you know, I mean, I liked it before but I'm like, okay, there's because I'm like, oh, you could see it, look at this way or this way or consider it this way. I mean, my notes had nothing about the grief or enlightenment process that came out in this chit chattering. So that's why, I mean, also that's why I like talking about this stuff because I do like having a Touchstone to expound on ideas like this. But also you really just give me an excuse to watch the Twilight Zone because otherwise I wouldn't watch it. So I'm grateful for that. Well, they just had the marathon last week. I live in Japan. I don't get any way. I didn't watch it. I watch these, you know, I'll give them a few views, but I'm basically plugging along with, you know, my, I'm not bending them myself, so I love it. I love that. It's great because it's there for you when you're ready. Right. Well, that was actually a big, the stupid reason for starting this podcast. So I got this blue race that I do want to watch it all.

0:50:44: I have to commit myself to doing that. So it will take me a few years to watch and that's fine. Hey, makes it, makes it the gift that keeps on giving to myself because I bought it for myself. But hey, those are great gifts. Those are my, some of my favorite gifts right on. Um Did you have any other big points on this one that you wanted to throw out or do we, do we get to all those?

0:51:08: No, I think we, I think we hit the major points. I, I look forward to you watching a couple of those black mirror episodes um because I really do think it peppered how I viewed this. Um And I think, I think you and I kind of hit on something with uh I challenge other people that are listening to this episode and us to think more on why, why are we seeing this particular moment of him?

0:51:34: Like why are we seeing this version if he's had this dream 700 times already? Why are we seeing this one? And I don't have an answer to that.

0:51:42: Yeah. And it, and I would tell people to also kind of go check out Judgment night again as an interesting uh compare and contrast with this one as a twilight zone with a similar situation. I'm sure we have a few more that are along these lines. But it is, yeah, it's a good vein of, you know, mind games to play with yourself basically, right?

0:52:04: Who doesn't like to ruin their good night's sleep.

0:52:08: I always, you know, idiot wisdom, I guess, would say. But Tim and Eric, awesome show they had Dr Steve Brule. Like, you know, if you're lonely you could just make puzzles and then solve them. Like, actually that's a good idea. That's not a bad idea. Steve, you know what? Sometimes there's paroles of wisdom.

0:52:32: That's right.

0:52:33: Anyway, I'm having to look at a date here. It is, it is early February. Anything amazing going on your senior that you want to plug?

0:52:41: Yeah, if it's early February and all things going according to plan in early March, the second half of heartbeats, my improvised medical drama, the show should be live. So we'll see if that happens. So there's, there's some cool improv internet stuff going on. I'm also D M NG D and D episode or D and D games for like private games where people can buy like a seat at my table if they want to experience a fun one shot tabletop game with me. Um and just more podcast stuff. And that's basically you go to Jessica Lindbergh dot com. You can figure out some stuff that's going on radio. As for this, this is time enough podcast. It's time enough pod on Twitter, I guess Facebook, I'm still there.

0:53:32: Hey, there's no reason to leave yet also on Facebook. And if you want to get under the hood a bit more on Patreon or podcast audio podcast where we talk about sci fi films on Matt looks sci fi sanctuary. I've started talking about the weird magical elements of occult elements of Disney movies and my occult Disney podcast, which is there and I should say.

0:53:59: But my co host and I like, we really like Disney films and stuff were just, you know, looking for those weird things that in the history of the films or, you know, weird imagery, the number of owls that appears pretty trippy and they're always the same, that kind of thing I think about winning a pose or the stone, uh, boxing the hounds. Always the same owl.

0:54:20: Yes. Well, that's also because it was, you know, I just watched 100 1 Dalmations last night with the heavy use of xeroxed animation. Oh, sure. And that's also not a very long movie too. So, they're like, we're just gonna do this 40 minutes ago today. Well, yeah, all of these earlier Disney movies are like, You're less than an hour and a half, just like, you know, 60-80 minutes. So, but that's kind of nice sometimes just to sit down, Hey, I can watch this whole movie right now and not get particularly, like, stressed out. I feel like I should be doing something else. I have trouble watching things. I can't bend shows again. Getting back to what I'm doing the twilight zone podcast the way I'm doing it.

0:55:04: I actually totally understand that it shouldn't be the case because I can actually sit down and watch a few episodes in a row but when it's a movie and, like, I should do something else.

0:55:13: That's too long. I'm notorious for breaking movies up into like, three segments. So that's doing that too. That's the joy of the movie theater though. Right. Because a few weeks, so I did go down and sit down and watch Avatar for three hours and 12 minutes, you know. So, it is a beautiful experience when you can be in the theater, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

0:55:34: The thing is I go to the late shows in Japan and there's like five people in the theater for a late shows. They like to go in the afternoon. So I almost always get, like, practically private screenings, which is fantastic.

0:55:45: And also living up in the mountains probably helps, you know. It's not Tokyo. Right. So, okay. Well, it's night time, not quite nighttime but you're close to bedtime, I guess so. So sweet dreams. Oh, no, I find that feel like a threat.