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0:00:03: It is the middle ground between light and shadow between science and superstition and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is Time Enough podcast.
0:00:36: Hello and welcome to Time Enough Podcast, a podcast about the Twilight Zone and beyond. I'm your host, Luke Summer Hayes. And this week I'm joined by James J Moles. Say hello, Jay.
0:00:49: Hello Jay. Prior to this, had you had much experience with the Twilight Zone.
0:00:56: Um So no, it's the short answer. Um The only really kind of extended exposure to the Twilight Zone is bizarrely the Tower of Terror Ride in, in, in uh in Florida, Disneyland, Florida. Um which where you go through. Uh I actually really enjoyed the, the queue for the ride more than anything else because you go through uh Spooky Hotel um and then into the, the elevator shaft and the, the obviously the ride itself um at the end of the, the sort of experience. But yeah, that's all the real kind of prolonged exposure to beyond the odd kind of you would see on the, like the Simpsons or Futurama, but never actually an episode of the show that I think about it until now.
0:01:44: Yeah, before this podcast started and an excuse to watch every episode, mostly of my experience was also the Simpsons parodies. Yeah.
0:01:54: Um, but I, I had sought out and deliberately watched the, like, one or two of the really famous episodes mostly because I wanted to see the Shatner ones because I was a big Trekkie. Hm. I just, I don't, I don't know where it would be available to watch normally. Like on UK Telly, we were growing up. It wasn't basically, I don't think I ever saw an episode on the TV, but like, like we did for this. Very easy to seek them out online. Yes. Yes, it is. I mean, I watched the Legitimate Blu Rays, obviously. Yeah, of course. I lent Ja my copy, posted it from Japan all the way to Scotland.
0:02:34: So this week's episode is a Game of Pool. Give you a little bit of the trivia.
0:02:40: This episode was written by George Clayton Johnson who would write seven episodes of the Twilight Zone in total. And he wrote the story which apparently Oceans 11 is based on.
0:02:53: Oh, um, so there was the one in the 60s and then the new ones. But yeah, he gets to be credited as creator of Oceans of Evans. That's pretty cool. Imagine if he's still alive, he's in some nice realities from that with the Clooney films and such.
0:03:07: I don't believe he is because I think he was born in 1920 something. You never know, you never do. No, no.
0:03:17: The director was a e Houghton, um a prolific director of TV and stuff at the time. And I think he did a total of like nine episodes of The Twilight Zone. And then our cast basically our first uh main actor, Jack Klugman, uh like super prolific character actor of the fifties and sixties all over TV. And movies eventually going on to star in the odd couple and he was in four total twilight zone episodes. And then our other main actor is Jonathan winters again mega prolific back in the day and then in more recently in the 90s and 2000s loads of cartoon voices.
0:04:10: Oh, such as, um, just like in all the cards you could think of. He had like one off roles as like single episode, Old Man or villain or something. Got you got you. And then he was also the voice of Grandpa Smurf and in the recent live action movies. The Voice of Pepper.
0:04:28: Oh, there we go. He got younger.
0:04:34: Oh, I guess grandpa's Murphy remarried and had some kids. Papa m forget.
0:04:43: But yeah, if I could get you to read the opening rod selling narration, of course, Jesse Cardiff Pool Shark, the best on Randall Street will soon learn that trying to be the best at anything carries its own special risks in or out of the twilight zone.
0:05:06: Yeah. Nice sort of little narration. This is a very, very small scale, tight little, if it was a show that had a regular casted set, you'd call this a bottle episode, right? Uh Yeah, I mean, it's one room. It's, uh, but I, I, I suppose you kind of have the Ethereal twilight zone version of the, the, the pool hall. But other than that, yeah, it's the pool hall that the whole, the whole episode takes place. And, um, so very, very much reminds me of like a kind of an intimate play in that sense, you know, that's exactly why I as well. Yeah, I would see this as a stage play.
0:05:49: Um, yeah, so obviously very, um, to what I'm looking for very much a human drama like it, there's a game of pool but you could rewrite it with a game of poker or a game of tennis or a game of, you know, a jewel with swords. The story essentially would have changed.
0:06:14: Yeah.
0:06:14: Um, it's, it's, you said you replace it with any sport or anything that you're trying to be the best and, and it's still a story about, you know, obsession and, and, and that whole idea of, you know, striving to be the very best to the point of well burning yourself out.
0:06:39: And I guess what it's getting at is that, you know, everyone out there who is the best, but there seems to be two, the two point of views is, uh, you've got Cardiff whose his angle is that to be the best, you have to be working all day, every day at being the best, like, classic, you know, like samurai swordsman sort of stuff. And then you've got fat who's like, being the best isn't so important that you shouldn't enjoy the rest of your life to probably a more healthy attitude.
0:07:11: The question is, can you be the best with that attitude?
0:07:15: I mean, I think in this day and age it's not, not as much if you think of like the, you know, the best athletes or the best footballers or the best sportsman sports women, what have you, they spend so much of their life dedicated to training from a very, very young age, like football, like, just like a footballer. Like, uh, you know, they'll, they'll go to an academy. Um, I was reading like, like from the age of like, 12 or 13, they get, like, media training and like the top academies these days. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's all all striving towards to be the, you know, the very best footballers that they can be, but that's obviously taken up so much of their life.
0:08:00: They wouldn't, they wouldn't get a, a quote unquote normal upbringing in that sense because they're being geared up towards being the best and then let alone there to put into, to maintain, being the best ones that are our top club or what have you? So, I guess that's something that's changed even in the time, like, since this episode released. And now is you think of football as, even in like the sixties, seventies, eighties, you know, they're necking pints and eating pies or, like, think of your, your darts players going up with a bit in hand game's gone, the game's gone.
0:08:39: Whereas now, yeah. So maybe just because the competition is so fierce because, you know, there's scouts traveling all up and down the world.
0:08:47: Yeah, you people really do feel they need to be the absolute best.
0:08:51: And I guess there's always more Jimmy Cardiff than there are fats is in the world these days.
0:08:56: There was a line that fats had about, you know, you want to see the records getting higher and higher and higher and it's, you know, maybe reaching, well, it's easy to say that now, who knows where we'll be in 100 years time? But it feels like you're reaching that point of the, you know, the point of human perfection for a lot of these records.
0:09:18: And how long are they going to stay unbroken? And what, what sort of sacrifices are people going to make in the future, to break records to be the best in the future? How much of their life are they gonna have to, to dedicate and obsess over to, to, to smashing some of the records that I'm sure will be set in the years to come some of the records are already in place. We're at that kind of peak where I remember was it the Beijing Olympics where the difference in pool depth was enough that it was resetting all the swimming records because like the water physics was different or whatever. Yeah.
0:09:53: So in terms of like the human performance, we're almost at the peak and now it's like, oh, can we make trainers which have like, sorry sneakers for the American listeners?
0:10:03: You know, that, that point earlier on going for that, I'll tell you one thing that I found really odd about this episode that you've got the guy whose nickname is Fats and he's calling him fat man throughout the episode and by modern standards, he's pretty average size. That's a sad indictment on our, our society these days, isn't it like Jesus? You know, I was thinking that like, is it, you know, maybe just like a, you know, was fat, like a nickname that people had back then or no gently, was he considered fat back then? That literally calls him fat man fat?
0:10:51: Yeah, that, that, that was enough to get you good fat man back in the 60s. And by these standards, smelt covered a fitness magazine, I guess he'd got the nickname in the 50s. So post war that probably was pretty fair or they own rations. That makes sense.
0:11:19: Well, that's one thing I get watching the Twilight Zone is you realize like, oh, Yeah, for these people. World War Two was really recent. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, for this episode, what, 59 or 61, this episode was 61. Yeah. 61.
0:11:35: Yeah.
0:11:36: So, God, less than 20 years ago, you were you know, you were in the, just the end of the world, the midst of World War Two. You know, I mean, we think 20 years ago now, 2003 09, 11, I guess, would be 20 years ago.
0:11:54: The same thing, right. It's, that's still fresh in our minds, you assume, especially in America. It's just assumed everyone remembers it.
0:12:01: Yeah.
0:12:03: And, yeah, an episode of Twilight Zone. It's just assumed if you're speaking to a bloke of a certain age, he fought in the war.
0:12:13: So, what game do you want to be the best in the world? Well, I was actually thinking about this during the episode because it very much the whole idea of having a, um, like being from, like, from beyond deaf or death itself even, you know, try to play in a sport to be the best. It reminded me of, um, it's a really old film, older than older than this. We're talking about thirties.
0:12:43: Um, we're like a, like a night, please. Chess. I know the one you mean? Yeah. Is it the, is it the seventh seal?
0:12:52: I think you might be right. Yeah.
0:12:54: Yeah.
0:12:55: Um, and I really can be getting into chess in a big way again.
0:13:00: Not quite as much earlier as you thought.
0:13:03: 1957. Oh, Wow. OK. There we go. So, yeah.
0:13:08: But, uh, yeah, it reminded me of that in a way. But, um, maybe what was on the nose with de himself playing chess.
0:13:15: But yeah, going back to the point of what game I want to be best at, I think chess is probably the chess would be the smart answer because, you know, at least, you know, you're looking like a real intellectual if you're doing that, the, the answer I'd probably say is probably sound like street fight.
0:13:36: I'd love to like, go and just one.
0:13:38: That'd be incredible.
0:13:40: Yeah, I was thinking like, if I was just going to answer for like, what could I get rich off? It would just be like league of legends or something, right? The megabus, right? Yeah, Starcraft or something. Yeah. But then I was thinking you have to have a team for those uh legal legends. Yes, Starcraft, you see to have carpal tunnel syndrome, right? So, yeah, although it's not as big as it once was, there's still like $100,000 price is huge.
0:14:13: I, I, I would, the thing with fighting games, I've always loved the idea of being good at them because when I hear people talk about fighting games, it sound like once you really learn the characters and stuff and it's just you and the opponent and there's, you know, thinking about distance and all of this. It sounds so good.
0:14:34: But I've never played one enough to get to that point.
0:14:38: We'll get you on street fight or six when it comes out.
0:14:40: Maybe we'll see the fun. The fun is playing it with someone else. You both start on day one and you'd like, get there together right up together.
0:14:48: That's the idea of any, that's the best experience I've ever had to fighting games. The best.
0:14:54: Then they don't want to play with you anymore.
0:15:00: I didn't get super into arms because there was less of a barrier on like wedding button inputs.
0:15:07: I guess the only one I could imagine ever being this at is Mario Cut eight.
0:15:12: But that's, I'm, I'm always the best in like my peer group. But then I go online and I'm reminded that there's, you know, a bunch of monster speed demons out there that I can always a fast racing online.
0:15:27: Yep. Well, the, the, the other question is like, why, what's the thing that you've, you've gotten this close to being, like, dedicated to being good at? Oh, man. Um, but you have, you put a fair amount of diamond in fighting games before? Yeah, I mean, smash mag fighter. Yeah. But then again, it's a, it's a similar sort of vibe to, to, to, to yourself with Mario Kart. Like I was good to be quite a few people online but then you'd go up against somebody that would just miles better. And you're like, oh, my God, like, they're probably, maybe, actually, maybe playing it in tournaments such, you're like, I'm nowhere near this.
0:16:14: Um, it did get to the point where I was, like, ah, maybe it would be cool to a tournament or two and take that next step. But, yeah, maybe that's about as close as I've got to being properly into something.
0:16:27: Street fighter four back in the day.
0:16:29: Um, chess back in high school. I used to be quite into it.
0:16:35: But yeah, never thought about taking that, that next step the next step because too busy living my life and other stuff, you know, too busy seeing the viewpoint of fats as opposed to Mr Cardiff.
0:16:51: Yeah, I can't, I definitely more of a fat in the Cardiff. I can barely think of anything. I did get super into speed running. Um, time trialing Meows on Mario when me and ma had that back and forth with our time.
0:17:05: That was good. And I even downloaded the best in the world time and was, like, chasing her, but she had, like, five seconds on me.
0:17:13: Yeah, definitely. I'm more of a fat, like, almost to a full where I do so many different things. I can't like, fully dedicate myself to any of them.
0:17:22: I do a little bit of writing and then I do a little bit of podcasting and I want to play video games and I want to go hiking and I'm doing this and that and I'm hitting the gym but I'm not the master of any of it.
0:17:33: Jack of Benny Trades. Yes.
0:17:35: But people always forget the full, the full quote is, uh, Jack of all trades. Master of none. But it's better than a master of one, is it, I suppose?
0:17:49: Yeah. I mean, I class it as, I suppose that's the original phrase and then people just keep forgetting to use the second half.
0:17:58: There's a few like that, like the, um, blood is thicker than water or whatever.
0:18:07: It's, the blood of the bond is thicker than the water of the womb. It actually means that your brothers in arms are closer than your blood. Your like natural born brothers.
0:18:18: Well, I have three questions I must ask you.
0:18:21: Oh, please do. Who in this episode went into the Twilight Zone?
0:18:28: Uh Fats.
0:18:36: Interesting. I would say that's like he was of the Twilight zone and he pulled Cardiff in right, I guess. Yeah. Ok. Yeah, I suppose thinking about it that way. Then, yeah. Was already in this part of the t toilet zone. Ok. Yeah. If anything fats escapes the twit in this episode. Yeah. Yeah.
0:18:58: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Cardiff takes its place and then the other question.
0:19:04: So we're both agreeing that it's Cardiff.
0:19:06: I would say so. Yeah. Yeah. Then the second question is easy. Does he deserve his trip to the Twilight zone?
0:19:15: He was warned he was warned and he gave him every chance to, to, to back out even when he, you know, quite clearly, almost flu that final shot and set it up perfectly for Cardiff. To, to, that was, you know, if you were thinking you'd be going, hang on. Why is he, he's letting me win here? Why, why, you know, obviously you think it just a bit of a bit of victory and taking that, that interesting, that, that worked because if that's essentially through the game is Cardiff the best.
0:20:01: Hm, I guess he's able to then proclaim himself as the best.
0:20:12: And I guess if it had, if, if in his eyes, he saw the win as legitimate, then I guess he can, he's got a right to call himself the best even though maybe we as the viewer and maybe fats himself, we always see that maybe fats should still be considered the best at the end by potentially throwing that last shot or just a ball. It, you know, that's, that's the, that's the, the beauty of a nuance, isn't it?
0:20:46: It reminds me of you must have seen this, there was an old youtube animation like spoofing Ash Ketchen.
0:20:54: Wow. Like he goes and fights Brock, he's getting destroyed and then like the power goes out and he um restores the power. So Brock's fridge doesn't go off or whatever, bro, gives him the bad out of pity and then he's going out like telling people that he beat Brock. Oh man, he didn't load it. It kind of reminds me of that. Like he gets a lucky break at the end and he immediately just turns around. I'm the best. I'm the best of the world. Finally, I'm the best.
0:21:27: So that means in the middle and then the other thing we have to give this and it's not a rating of quality but on a scale of 1-5. Where does this rate on the trip a meter?
0:21:44: The triple meter as in how Trippy, I found the episode. It was um it's, it's not that out there.
0:21:59: I mean, it's a very, like you said, human story at the end of things like, yes, obviously we've got a, a, a spirit coming back and challenging you to a pool game.
0:22:13: But the actual crux and the, and the moral of the story is human and grounded in a sense, it's why like, you know, I could see, as we said at the very start, I could easily see this as a sort of intimate stage show.
0:22:29: Um, intimate play. So I almost go a one but it feels harsh in terms of, well, I don't know, it's a trip for me. It's not a, it's not a rating, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah, I would, I would probably go a one just in terms of, yeah, there's a ghost, but the actual story itself is two guys chatting, I suppose, being condemned to, to spend the rest of your days playing lads who think they're the best at pool is a, is a pretty grim existence actually.
0:23:08: For fact, it was a existence. I think Cardiff would love it. Do you think? I thought the final shot where he's kind of hunched over the table.
0:23:19: He looked, he looked miserable. He had been doing that for all existence until you get sick of being the best. Is that, that's playing at, maybe it's, if he builds his own cage because if, if fats did throw the game at the end there, I think Cardiff could never do that.
0:23:42: Or he gets to the point where he thinks the only way I'm going to go out of this is by throwing the game against somebody. Then he'll realize all those years ago, all that time ago. Fast at the same.
0:23:55: It was never truly the best.
0:23:58: It's an interesting take, um, maybe that bumps up tattoo but it, it's, it's, it's definitely grounded. It's not out there massively. So, but Jay, do you make content on that internet that you'd like to plug?
0:24:14: Yes, I do funnily enough. You might know about this content.
0:24:19: Um, I record a podcast currently on hiatus. Um, well, we might be doing one last little bonus episode for, uh, for the time being, uh, called, uh, the Monster Mash podcast, which is a podcast about the video game Monster Hunter, talking about all the big beasties.
0:24:38: You can fight and that their video game I did that with, um, with Luke and another gentleman named who you could meet if you decide to toddle over and have a listen to that. Um where three of us are actually going to be moving on and recording a, a new podcast coming up very soon about the legend of Zelda, uh Tears of the Kingdom, um which will be airing pretty soon. I don't have any more information on you than that because Luke will know more than I will.
0:25:11: Yeah, we'll probably kick it off with like one or two episodes just before the game releases and then when it comes out we'll get into it. Mhm. And uh I also do uh a reverent games comedy quiz show called The Game Game Show again of Luke and with uh a revolving door of guests. Um, but mainly, um myself, Luke and a couple of the gentlemen who you can go over and meet if you decide to listen to that one too. It's a, it's a good laugh if you like video games and uh like a bit of banter as they say. Um But yes, that's, that's mainly what we do. Uh This podcast is time enough podcast, time enough pod on Twitter and you can find it and all of our podcasts by going to patreon dot com slash podcast podcast.
0:26:04: Yes. Well, for a dollar a month, you can hear episodes a little early um but even if you don't want to donate, that's the link you should go to, if you just want to find all our different podcasts in one spot, I've been thinking of getting just like a simple U O L because it seems, seems rude whenever someone wants to find our podcast to send them to the Patreon. Right?
0:26:25: I have a podcast podcast dot com and it's just the links and get like a what, what all the, the podcast is G G now, right? That's, yeah, something like that. Just a link tree or whatever. Yeah, you'll find something. And in the meantime, if you want to hear more of me, then me and Matt, whoever that is, uh we do a podcast called Matt and Luke sci-fi Sanctuary that's actually winding down just now and that's also gonna be replaced with films or filth the Citizen Kane of podcasts where we're going to be counting down the top 100 also the bottom 100 films as ranked by the users of I M DB.
0:27:09: I have a severe attachment to anything called the Citizen can always enjoy that moniker.
0:27:19: And till then, I can't remember if Matt has like a special sign off for these, but we're gonna go and challenge the ghost of one of the mcilroy's to be the best podcasters of all time.
0:27:36: You know, I've never listened to anything done by a single mccrory. I just know them from other podcasts mentioning them. At least she didn't say somebody like Joe Rogan or something that would have made me cry. I would like to challenge Joe Rogan, but I think he also does what U F C so, yeah, he probably probably kick her asses, but it won't be as good at podcast as us. Bye. See ya.